Dr Joe Kort and Dealing with Shame in Sex
In this episode, Michelle Renee talks with Dr Joe Kort, a sex therapist based in Detroit, Michigan, about shame in sex. They also talk about expanding our definitions of sex, the term "side", and erotic orientation.
Psychotherapist Joe Kort, PhD, LMSW, is the clinical director and founder of The Center for Relationship and Sexual Health in Royal Oak, Michigan. He is a board-certified clinical sexologist, author of four books, lecturer and facilitator of therapeutic workshops, and the host of Smart Sex Smart Love podcast. You can learn more at JoeKort.com and find him on social media at @drjoekort.
The host, Michelle Renee, is a surrogate partner, intimacy guide, and professional cuddler located in San Diego, CA. You can learn more at meetmichellerenee.com.
For more information about Soft Cock Week, go to SoftCockWeek.com, which includes resources, events, and even soft cock love notes.
Notes from this show:
Rekindling Desire with Barry McCarthy on Joe's podcast Smart Sex Smart Love
Come As You Are by Emily Nagoski (learn about responsive desire)
Also a great Ted Talk with her about sustaining sexual connection
Lee Phillips' Sex and Chronic Illness podcast episode with Michelle Renee
Guys We Fucked episode with Michelle Renee
Ruby Ryder and PeggingParadise.com
My favorite tshirts:
Rought Transcript:
Michelle Renee (she/her) (00:01.555)
Welcome back to Soft Cock Week. This is the interview that I've kind of really been waiting for. Like I've done, I think I have six interviews in the can right now. And this one might be the last one I record for Soft Cock Week 2023. So we're going to end on like the one that I've been waiting for. And we worked the hardest to make this interview happen. I just want to say that before I even say who is on the other side with me. Dr. Joe Kort is joining us today and I
think I started Soft Cock Week last year and Joe really jumped on board with like sharing and liking this kind of really grassroots random idea that I had that I just kind of ran with and it was kind of fun to see who all connected with this passion project of mine and I did I expected to like help the audience maybe feel a little bit differently about their current
Dr. Joe kort (00:47.406)
Thanks for watching!
Michelle Renee (she/her) (00:58.683)
But what I accidentally found was that I got connected to all sorts of really wonderful people and colleagues. And I remember Joe liking a lot of stuff on Instagram. And then we got to cross paths at Psych Networker. And I flagged you down real quick just to be like, I'm Michelle, I wanna talk to you more about this in the upcoming year. And
Thank you for like working hard on your end to really make this date happen because it did not come easily. And I appreciate the shit out of you for being here today. So, and I've mentioned you are, I've mentioned a conversation that we've had so many times in these interviews. So we're going to dive into that today, but Joe, can you let everybody else know that doesn't already know who you are? Who is Dr. Joe Kort
Dr. Joe kort (01:28.13)
Hmm.
Dr. Joe kort (01:46.666)
All right. It's all funny because I always used to ask my nephews and nieces that when they were kids, who are you? You know, who is Jacob? You know, so who am I? I'm Dr. Joe Kort I've been a therapist for 38 years. I'm a licensed master social worker, but I also have a PhD in clinical sexology. I'm in Detroit, Michigan, and I have written four books on LGBT issues, male sexual fluidity issues. And then my most recent two books are about erotic orientation.
the things that turn people on, the things that get you off. Um, and I run a center here in, uh, Royal Oak, Michigan, which is right outside Detroit for, uh, it's called the center for relationship health. And it has about 23 therapists now. And, um, I'm trying to make it as diverse as I can. So it provides what the, whatever somebody needs to be able to come through here. And, um, I coined the term side. Hopefully we'll talk about that, uh, for gay men, but I'm hoping that it expands beyond gay and bi men. And, um,
That's me.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (02:45.731)
Yeah, you kind of took off on TikTok. That was, I think, I don't, I think I knew of you before that. I'm pretty, I'm a hundred percent sure I did because I feel like my connection to you, I'd have to really dig to figure out when you first came on my radar, but I know a lot of my close colleagues, like Ruby Ryder has been on your podcast and so you've hit a lot of conversations in my world and I love our overlap.
And I was just talking about like who is Joe Kort? And I was like, yeah, and sides and it's on grinder now. And it's just, it's cool to have that impact on a culture, right?
Dr. Joe kort (03:24.106)
It really, it's been probably what I've longed for. I didn't know what I would contribute, but I wanted to contribute something that was mine, not necessarily a theory that someone else had that I use, which is fine, or a thought process or intervention. This is mine and it feels great.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (03:41.191)
Yeah, I'm working on figuring out what that thing will be for me, but I'll get there eventually. Maybe it's the softcock thing. I don't know. So one of the things I've mentioned around you so many times this week is an interview that you had with Barry McCarthy. And I don't remember what year it was, but I did go back and listen to it and it's available. You have a podcast called Smart Sex, Smart Love. Okay. I was like,
Dr. Joe kort (03:45.206)
Hmm. You will.
Dr. Joe kort (04:06.519)
Yes.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (04:08.639)
Oh, I didn't write any notes down, but I think that's the order of it. Um, yeah. And, and I love, Barry came into my world. I haven't met him personally. I'm sure it will happen one of these days, but I work with a lot of, um, people with erectile dysfunction issues, which now I'm calling erectile differences. Um, thanks to some upgrades that I've heard recently. I'm like, I like that. Um, and his book, coping with erectile dysfunction became kind of a Bible in my work as an intimacy guide and surrogate partner. And so.
Dr. Joe kort (04:10.978)
You got it.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (04:37.655)
When you mentioned him in our conversation about doing this interview, you mentioned a conversation that you had on your podcast. Do you want to do you want me to repeat it or would you like to introduce that conversation? Okay.
Dr. Joe kort (04:50.786)
Sure, I can introduce it because I've done videos on it. And ever since he taught it to me, it's like, because it's unexpected. The question is, you know, who stops having sex first in a heterosexual relationship? Men or women? And people, you know, most people say women, but the answer is men. And the reason it's men is because men stop having agency over their erections and feel ashamed, don't know what to do with it, haven't had much experience with outer course, feel like they have to provide intercourse.
so they stop having sex.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (05:22.243)
Yeah, we don't have a very expansive, I mean, sex education is certainly an issue just in general. And I think the older the generation, the even less sex education they've had. And we certainly, pleasure-based sex education is such a new concept, right? And so I know in my own journey, I had to learn about responsive desire, right? I thought I was broken because I wasn't showing up for sex the way that my first husband was.
He had the erection that was really reliable. I mean, so reliable that I thought men and penises just had no issues with each other. They never had a complicated relationship until I got out of that relationship and then I got introduced to the rest of the world, where it is a complicated relationship. If you don't know why things aren't working the way that they used to work or the thing that used to say, oh, I have this erection.
Dr. Joe kort (06:02.126)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (06:22.667)
it's time for the sex or the masturbation or the orgasm. We could just shoot to that, you know, it's time to orgasm, I have an erection. When that changes for whatever reason.
What, where are they supposed to have the information to know that that's not, they're not broken. There's nothing wrong.
Dr. Joe kort (06:43.682)
Right, right, and there is no place to go. And then if they go to the internet, there's so much misinformation and they don't know who to talk to about it. One thing that I discovered and I was really surprised about it, I actually thought I created it. I thought this will be my thing, right? Before I create a site. But it turns out that people in this EMDR, Eye Movement Desensitization Reprocessing, they've all knew about it, but I'm not on their listserv, so I didn't know this. But...
I would get these men coming in with erectile problems. They didn't have, wasn't medical, it wasn't physical. And by the way, I love erectile differences. I say erectile disappointment, but I'm also gonna say, yes, I like differences. I love it. I mean, it's great. And so,
Michelle Renee (she/her) (07:19.739)
That's what I did too. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (07:24.983)
The disappointment still had a negative kind of connotation to it, right? You're disappointed in it, where if it's just a difference, we can deal with differences.
Dr. Joe kort (07:32.726)
better. I love that. Love it. And so these guys would come in and they would, and it was, you know, anxiety based is what it is. And so I would say, let's try EMDR. It can't hurt you. And it's all, it's all the job of EMDR is to discharge any emotion, neutralize this. And I'm telling you, within four or less sessions, their erections returned and it would point them out the door to their partners and they'd be gone. I'd never see them again because that's all they needed.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (07:59.535)
Yeah, and that's a win. You know, in both of our work, when people don't need us anymore, yeah, we need to celebrate. Yeah, that's fantastic. I hadn't had EMDR brought up as an option on my radar.
Dr. Joe kort (08:05.55)
totally.
Dr. Joe kort (08:14.89)
Oh yeah. Well then I, yeah, then I get on there. I went on the list of, I'm like, listen, is this something? I mean, I think I've, is, is the Joe Kort erectile, you know, whatever. And they're like, no, we've been doing this for years and we all know it works. And I'm like, Oh, all right. All right. Nobody told me.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (08:27.907)
Right. The other side of that is like playing with power dynamics and being like, your erection is not allowed to show up here and hope, you know, wondering if it's going to show up because it's not supposed to, right? Taking the pressure off in a different direction. Yeah, that's awesome. So in your conversation with Barry, like that was a new concept for you. If I remember correctly, like you were really just kind of like, wow, I never thought about that. So, so.
Dr. Joe kort (08:35.054)
Hahaha!
Dr. Joe kort (08:38.506)
Yeah, yeah, right, right.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (08:57.35)
Do you remember how long ago that interview was?
Dr. Joe kort (09:00.302)
It's probably about two, well, before COVID even. I don't know. It has to be two or three years.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (09:05.591)
Yeah. So so when people started to show up in your office, then was that kind of like the Oh, here's my new thing I want to share with you is you might just have responsive desire.
Dr. Joe kort (09:17.162)
Yes, yes, I started using that all over the place. Because I didn't really understand that before. And yeah, and I had never heard of, because yeah. I don't know what I was going to say. Go ahead.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (09:29.851)
Well, yeah, I mean, I heard about it from Emily Nagoski, right, and Come As You Are, which is a very, I think, female-centered book. It's not really looked at from a full gender spectrum. And it can, the information is all relevant. We're all wired more the same than we're not. And when I, when you brought that up on our conversation, I have just...
Dr. Joe kort (09:35.926)
Yes.
Dr. Joe kort (09:44.556)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joe kort (09:54.059)
Yes.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (09:58.755)
really run with that. It's something that I talked a lot about with clients just in, hey, if we're going to sexually connect in our work, this is something you need to know about me. This is part of my owner's manual, right? Of like, this is the breaks and accelerators in my life. These are the things that work for me and things that don't work for me. And what I know about myself is that I have to hit arousal before desire shows up. Something I know about myself. So I'm
Dr. Joe kort (10:09.593)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (10:28.011)
say yes to this thing that I'm willing to kind of play around with. And when, when desire shows up because arousal has shown up, then I'm a yes to move forward. And if it doesn't, I might change her mind. Right. And you as my partner need to be prepared that this might not go any farther than naked cuddling with some lovely soft touch, right? Like it might not be able to move forward. And I need to know that I'm safe to say that I'm just, I can't, I can't wrap my brain around this today. You know,
Dr. Joe kort (10:38.414)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joe kort (10:56.718)
Well, what I love about that is so much is that you're aware of yourself enough to be able to say this and know this and then be able to discuss it, communicate with. We know that people aren't always really good at this, particularly heterosexual couples. Gay and lesbian couples are much better about all this than straight couples.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (11:11.184)
Yes.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (11:15.235)
Yeah, and that's, I'm turning 48. And this is new. This is not something that I had, the language. I mean, if you don't know what you don't know, like I talked about Emily's work, her Ted talks for a long time before I actually finally read the book. And I read the book over COVID and I cried because this was like, I'm not even doing all the erotic work that I do.
it still took that for me to go, I'm not actually broken. Like I didn't have the language around it. And to look back at my first marriage and go, I felt so defective because I wasn't able to show up spontaneously like my partner was, was like my erection wasn't showing up like that. Right? Like I have to have, I have erectile tissue too. I have to have engorgement. I have to have all these things too. And it just really, it really changed on my
perception of myself. So, no, go ahead.
Dr. Joe kort (12:14.538)
It's so funny. Oh, go ahead. Well, I was going to say, I learned in my PhD program for my sexology program, I never knew that women had performance anxiety. Men have performance anxiety because their erections don't show up. And I remember my professor in the school saying, well, women have it too. They have two engorges. They have their own erection. They have their own, right, lubrication and all that. I'm like, oh, yeah, that makes all the sense.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (12:38.891)
It's, I think it's, I think it's our shift in how we look at partnered sex, that I think for so long, as a as a female bodied person, my job was to provide this allowance for my male partner to have intercourse, we if we're not talking about female pleasure, and we're not talking about, like, that
72% of women don't have an orgasm from penetration alone. Sometimes we don't care. The society hasn't cared about that. I just finished reading a book that I took on as a, I need to know what the other side is thinking kind of book and it was The Great Sex Rescue. Have you heard of it or read it? It's kind of like breaking down the top.
referenced books in like Christianity for relationship issues and took the worst advice out of them as far as it goes around sex. It's disturbing to read that what the messaging is out there and it's important to know what the messaging is. And so much of the messaging is not about female pleasure. Like that's not part of the equation. And so if it's just such a one-sided view
of sex and it's all just about intercourse. There's a shaming to masturbation. There's definitely a shaming to porn use, of course. And they don't even talk about masturbation in reference to porn. They just call it porn use, which I assume means that they're only referencing the use of porn and masturbation. Heaven forbid couples are watching it together.
Dr. Joe kort (14:02.638)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joe kort (14:22.646)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joe kort (14:26.048)
Right, right.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (14:29.275)
person in this heterosexual monogamous relationship is masturbating. That it's not talked about at all. It's really just talked about what you can do to show up for your husband so that he has a place to get his needs met, right? And it's just such a gross. I just, I'm glad that that's not the message that's across the globe, but it is certainly common. Unfortunately, if it's showing up in these books, it's just so.
Dr. Joe kort (14:41.142)
Yeah, it's sad.
Dr. Joe kort (14:50.094)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yes it is.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (14:57.603)
It's a difficult book to read. I'm going to do a podcast just about like my thoughts and some of my colleagues' thoughts on this book. And I think it's, it's a helpful book, but it's also really, really hard to read as someone who grew up in the Christian church and doesn't, I don't remember having those specific indoctrinations. And according to the book, the research they found is those messages are not actually coming inside the church. They're coming from outside the church in the, in the,
Dr. Joe kort (15:06.798)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (15:25.743)
The lack of sex education that people have when they get married, and then they start to have difficulties in the bedroom, they turn to these resources. And that's where the problem, the problem messaging is coming in, not necessarily from the church itself, which is a little bit of a relief, but anyway, how does that play into soft cocks Michelle? I don't know. Back to like, I think it's about expanding our view of sex.
Dr. Joe kort (15:46.176)
That is.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (15:55.583)
And what does sex mean and how do we show up for it? And I talk with my colleague a lot about we low key in our work as surrogate partners, teach people how to queer their sex. So my question to you is like, do these same problems show up in the gay community? And anybody working outside of the usual heteronormative space, are they freaking out when...
the erections change? Okay.
Dr. Joe kort (16:25.718)
Yes. And that's why I created the term side because I feel like what's happened in the gay male community and even the younger generation, I think, does it more maybe because of social media and their Reddit groups and they're all talking about it is intercourse is the gold standard, which is true for straight. And it's true for gays and lesbians. And so, and when I ask my clients, you probably have the same thing. I'll say to someone, are you having sex with your boyfriend? And they'll say, um, no, we're waiting until, you know, marriage, but
I give a lot of blowjobs. I'm like, well, have you heard the term oral sex? That means there's sex happening. But what happens is people are thinking that sex equates intercourse. So when I say to people, I don't have intercourse. I've never had intercourse. I don't want anyone to top me. I don't want anyone to bottom me. Oh, then you're asexual, right? Because they're thinking I'm not having sex. So what happens for gay men is there's this heavy, heavy use of I'm a top.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (17:16.283)
Hmm
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joe kort (17:23.958)
I'm going to give you anal sex. I'm a bottom. I'm going to receive anal sex. I'm versatile. I can go either way. I'm a top verse where I'm mostly top, but every once in a while I'm bottom. I'm a bottom verse, and every once in a while I'm top. And so then, and I've never fantasized about it. People say to me, you know, you're 60, Joe, so maybe it's because of HIV and the whole AIDS crisis. Maybe because you were sexually abused. Maybe because you never had the right guy. You never had it done right.
a lot of these things were said to lesbians. You know, you just met the right guy, if you just had a done right, I'm like, first of all, I'm not a lesbian, so let's stop talking to me like one. And secondly, none of that's true. It's just never, in fact, when somebody, when I talk about gayness and somebody starts to go down the road of anal sex, because that's what they're thinking, it catches me off guard, because I'm not even, that's not how I define myself, obviously, as a gay guy. So one day we were all, I was talking about,
Michelle Renee (she/her) (17:56.268)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Dr. Joe kort (18:21.142)
I didn't use the word side. I would always talk because I didn't know the word. I didn't have a word I would just would always say, you know, I don't like penetration No anal would be my you know tagline or whatever and um, I was talking to friends and they're like, you know Well, you know, they're saying to me, you're not having sex and they were kind of giving me a hard time And I said if i'm not on the top and i'm not a bottom maybe i'm just a side and we all laughed And I was just thinking of a box, you know, like there's a top a bottom and a side And then when we stopped laughing I said wait
Michelle Renee (she/her) (18:45.488)
Hmm?
Dr. Joe kort (18:49.238)
Why can't that be the thing? Why can't I, why can't that be the word? So then I wrote an article on Huffington Post in 2013, and that brought me all these emails of gay men and bi men saying, thank you for normalizing me. It was great.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (19:04.783)
Well, you shared your experience, which is so, so difficult. It is somebody who's, you know, working the soft cock week. For the people that have volunteered their stories, thank you, because we have to talk about it to realize it's not just us. This is how we got, you know, marriage equality, was people coming out of the closet. This is how, you know, we will...
Dr. Joe kort (19:07.608)
Yes.
Dr. Joe kort (19:29.527)
Yes.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (19:33.187)
I think make movement on trans issues because we have more visibility for the trans community. And I think the same thing when we're talking about our erectile differences is like, we gotta talk about it. So you don't think you're the only one. You couldn't have been the only side out there, right? And so you talked about it, you put your vulnerability out there and-
look what's happened. Was it last year that grinder added side as an option?
Dr. Joe kort (20:02.442)
Yeah. So what happened was I had a lot of shame about it. I'm not going to lie. And I wouldn't tell everybody about it. It grew over time. As I aged, I was like more and more like empowered. You know how we age and you're like, fuck it. This is how I am. So fuck it. We can't, you know, so it's a pun here, but no. So then I became popular on Tik Tok and I started talking about side there. And then Grindr got a hold of the information. Well,
Michelle Renee (she/her) (20:16.452)
Yeah!
Dr. Joe kort (20:26.334)
So then I started a Facebook group. But one of the guy, one friend of mine said, if you don't start this group, I'm gonna start it. He said, and I have no time for it. So it's not gonna be a good group. So please start it. So I did. And because I didn't think I had time for it, but I have other people helping me facilitate it. We have 7,500 men. And in the beginning, this happened three years ago, we started petitioning Grindr and Scruff and all the apps and please. So then somebody, Bobby Box, I think, is the one who got ahold of the information, talked with Grindr, is a part of Grindr.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (20:47.567)
Mmm.
Dr. Joe kort (20:56.494)
And then they created it. So it's probably two years ago now that they legitimized it and they gave me all the credit for it Which I was so happy and what I'm I want to tell you why I think it works So well with your soft cock week is so many men Who can't rely on their erections who don't want to rely on their erections? You know, they're kinky people and fetish people who never fuck they never get it's not about fucking It's not it's about people that blows people's minds. They're like wait what?
A lot of kinky people are sides, whether you're a gay or bi man or not. And so, and then there's just men that as they age, you know, so anyways, so I think it goes with like enjoying the soft cock, enjoying outer course as well as or instead of intercourse
Michelle Renee (she/her) (21:26.048)
Mm-hmm. Uh-huh.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (21:42.391)
Yeah, it's changing how we connect. Like I think it just requires being able to not know the formula. And I don't think the formula ever really works. I remember my first husband being like, well, this one thing worked for you today. So we're gonna go to that thing every time. And it's like, that's not how bodies work. Like what felt good to me yesterday will not feel good to me today. It changes, right? What I want is to like,
Dr. Joe kort (22:04.626)
Right now.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (22:12.027)
figure out in the moment what will feel good to me right now. And, and, and I'm one of these people, I say, find your compatible person, right? Everybody is into different things. You can't just be like, you're, you're a, a woman with a meeting up with a man. And so you clearly want to have cock, right? You need to have penetration. No, I could, I mean, if I had to choose, I would take hand sex over like PIV sex.
Dr. Joe kort (22:16.076)
Yes.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (22:41.691)
Like it's the most versatile, right? Your hands can do things that your penis can't do. Just like I have people that are like, I struggle with reaching orgasm from PIV sex or from oral sex, but I have no problem doing that from masturbation. Yeah, because my vulva, my vagina can't do the same things that your hand can do, right? There's a difference in...
Dr. Joe kort (22:44.534)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joe kort (22:48.504)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (23:11.027)
and pressure and speed and all these things, right? So like, I don't care if your erection isn't showing up consistently or ever, or I can still get really excited about connecting with you. And that's what I wish we could change the narrative around what does sex mean. It's just another way to be vulnerable.
Dr. Joe kort (23:32.973)
Yeah.
Well, with gay men, sides are shamed. They're very lonely. Guys are mean on the apps, too. And I had my own, I guess I don't remember feeling as badly as the men that are in my group do. I was in my 20s and there were a lot of guys that passed me right by because they wanted to fuck, they wanted penetrative sex, which I got. And I was like, not gonna give. And I remember thinking, and I still see them around the community 30 years later and I'm like.
Oh yeah, you just weren't, you might've been a great husband, but not for me. Until I met my own husband, who was willing to, um, who was also a side in many ways. I mean, he might've wanted to experiment, but I never wanted to do that. But the thing is, with gay men is, if you don't have a hard cock, then you're either going to be the bottom or get out. That's how it goes.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (24:21.027)
Yep. Yeah. So thanks for the reminder that limited beliefs exist everywhere. Yeah.
Dr. Joe kort (24:27.942)
Oh yeah, yes. You know, like, you know, the thing is, outer course, you know, we're also talking to sex therapists about getting rid of the word foreplay. Because foreplay is sex, and it's not before anything. It might be all there is. Right?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (24:36.027)
Mm-hmm. Mm-mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's also getting rid of the idea of simultaneous orgasms, right? I'd like to just like take those off the goal list. Another one just popped in my head of, oh, reciprocation, right? Like this idea that there's something wrong, either maybe you're a stone lesbian or...
We have to, we have a term in lesbian world for this, right? But like I try to tell clients like, you know what's a really lovely gift is when you focus on your partner and when they've had their orgasm and they just get to lay there and just soak in the aftershocks and not immediately switch to, okay, now it's your turn and I'm going to reciprocate. What if a different day is your turn to receive, right?
Dr. Joe kort (25:24.654)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (25:33.895)
pleasure in orgasms and...
Dr. Joe kort (25:35.23)
I love, love this conversation because a lot of guys will say, a lot of gay guys will say, I only like to give, I'd rather not get, or there are guys that only like to get and not give. And I don't think there's anything selfish or selfless about it. It's just what I call their erotic orientation. You've heard that, right? I love to...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (25:53.263)
Yeah. And it's, it's the normative thinking though, right? Because again, we go back to in the kink world, the BDSM world, that is not pathologized as there being anything wrong with you. And I've had that with, uh, I had it with a surrogate partner client where we were having fantastic sex and it never, never got to the point of him having an erection.
Dr. Joe kort (26:04.738)
That's right.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (26:20.495)
I was totally okay with that. And here's the problem that I face in this work is that I'm really like this flexible, fluid partner to my clients that I'm like all about wanting to love them the way they show up. And then battling that, what is it gonna be like for them in the regular world? And preparing them for expectations and how can they talk about it? Maybe...
Dr. Joe kort (26:34.636)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joe kort (26:38.894)
Mm-mm-mm, right.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (26:45.455)
Maybe you would like to explore the BDSM world. Maybe you would do really well in a female led relationship that has these kinds of parameters that component isn't a key part of that, of your sexual experience with that person. It's hard. It's so hard.
Dr. Joe kort (27:00.526)
I know it's hard. And I'm glad that we're talking about so much of the positivity and all the replacement and things that can be done instead, but I wanna make it clear that this is super painful for men who can't get erections. It is very shaming. It is very depressing. It impacts how they feel as a man, how they feel as a partner, how they feel sexy. And then what complicates it is when partners shame them for it, even inadvertently. And you know, like when I say to the guys,
I do EMDR, I'm like, you know, give me a target. What's the image in your head that's most disturbing? I'm naked, I have a flaccid penis. My partner on the end of the bed is either crying or feeling lonely or shaming me and because they don't feel desired. If there's no erection, then you don't desire me. And so it's just, it's so, I mean, that's why God made sex therapists, I guess, right? Because, you know, to help people through this horrible experience.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (27:54.927)
Yeah, go find help, right? Don't suffer in silence. The thing is, is their partners don't know how to show up in it either. And that's the difficult part is they're internalizing it and then they're projecting. So what does this mean about me? What does this mean about you? What does this mean about us? And everybody's struggling and they don't have to struggle alone. And they certainly, I don't think, don't ignore it.
Dr. Joe kort (27:59.724)
Right.
Dr. Joe kort (28:06.382)
No, right.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (28:25.003)
right? And just shut each other down and pull back and you lose your connection and the walls go up. And then you're in a, you know, you hit your 20 year anniversary, 30 year anniversary, and you're like, we're roommates. You can't even really say you're friends if you're not being open and honest with each other, right? You've just closed each other off and we only get one of these lives. And if you want a sexual, healthy sexual relationship,
Being walled off is not gonna get you that.
Dr. Joe kort (28:57.046)
No, and I like when guys play with it. Like I've had clients that said, multiple clients that have used this term, honey, I have a drive-by, meaning I have an erection. Get in here quick so we can use it because it's not gonna last very long. I love calling them drive-bys. You're not having fun with it.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (29:09.891)
That's so funny. I spoke with a gentleman named Mish Middleman the other day and he runs a group. He's in Toronto now actually, so kind of close to you. He runs a group called recoveringman.net and it's for people primarily that have recovered from prostate cancer. But it's open to anybody who wants to save space to talk about sex and...
know what it's like to deal with issues and stuff. But he quoted a physiotherapist out of Australia, I can't think of her name, but a watched cock never comes.
Dr. Joe kort (29:50.998)
Oh, I love that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (29:52.591)
And I was like, that's a bumper sticker, right? Because yeah, the drive-by, the drive-by is gonna be my other one that I think I hold onto from this week because it puts the fun in it, right? It lessens the heaviness of this topic. And...
Dr. Joe kort (30:03.259)
Oh, I love it.
Dr. Joe kort (30:14.282)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And because so much shame. And let me tell you why. So you started out the podcast talking about how I was liking your stuff. First of all, I didn't know you were the creator of it until today. I thought this has been a thing for a long time. You created soft cock week. I had no idea.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (30:29.123)
Yeah, I was on, I was Brian Gibney, who is a surrogate partner colleague of mine, I call my work husband, we make lots of professional babies together. We were doing a couple of podcasts, we did Lee Phillips, I know you're connected to Lee, we did his podcast in the spring of 2022. And we got on this topic about my, my heart breaks when men show up on my door and they say, fix my penis, it doesn't stay hard 100% of the time during sex. And I was like,
Dr. Joe kort (30:43.018)
Oh yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (30:58.599)
that's just normal. Like porn is affecting how you view expectations, right? And that's just, it's unfair to everybody. And then, so there was kind of a joke, I should create this softcock appreciation month thing there. And then it repeated itself. Brian and I were again on the guys we fucked podcast talking about this same thing. And again, I said,
I should really just create this month of appreciation of soft penises. And Lee Phillips comes back at me again and says, so why don't you do it? And I was like, all right. Yeah. All right, Lee. And I, and I really expected a group of people to kind of come together and help me with it. But when it comes down to it, I'm kind of a lone player in so many ways because yeah, you can get farther with other people helping you, but it it's faster by yourself in a lot of ways. And I'm the kind of person that
Dr. Joe kort (31:34.733)
the
Dr. Joe kort (31:49.846)
You're welcome.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (31:52.119)
I'm an intensive and I, you know, I'll be in the shower one day, have an idea and I'll have the website up by the end of the afternoon kind of person. And so, um, we were on guys we fucked in August of last year. And I was like, yeah, you know, and I played around with, what do I want to call it? And I ran some names by Lee and, um, another colleague of mine. And, uh, I just was like, all right, I'm just going to run with it. I had the website up. I think I launched the website in.
late September maybe of last year for November and we picked November with the help of Ruby Rider. She does a lot of fundraising for Movember and we're like that makes sense to make this kind of a fundraiser for Movember. Anything that we do happen to take in if we sell products or if anyhow some money comes in or we can direct money their way that's what we do because it's so tied to mental health for men and like it just it just kind of
bloomed on its own with really low expectations. I was like, I'm just going to do it and whatever I do is better than nothing. And I'm doing the same thing this year, whatever I do is better than nothing. And I decided to start the podcast and I'm only going to put episodes out during the week of soft cock week. And I have my other, I just started my own podcast and I just figure I have the technology to do this and I'm learning the skill set. So
Dr. Joe kort (32:50.237)
Yeah, that's great.
Dr. Joe kort (32:59.639)
Yes.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (33:15.383)
Why not throw it towards softcock week as another offering that felt like a big yes for me? So yeah, we just sprung out of nowhere. No pun intended.
Dr. Joe kort (33:26.739)
Well, let me tell you what I liked about it was I have always preferred and enjoy a soft cock more than I've ever enjoyed a hard cock. And nobody understands that when I tell them that. And I think it comes from, I believe strongly that, so I talk about erotic orientation versus sexual orientation. Your sexual orientation is to whom you're attracted. Male, female.
blend of both, neither, multiple genders. Or then you have your erotic orientation, the things that get you off, the things that bring you to orgasm, they don't always line up. And so I believe strongly the Jack Morin erotic mind book that our fantasies mostly, not all, but mostly come from our childhoods or histories, and they get threaded in and eroticized and sexualized. So I like to always thread back mine, like where did that come from? Like, why do I like that? Maybe it just is.
but it was also my mother used to have Cosmopolitan magazine, which I would masturbate to, and Playgirl, which I would masturbate to. And all of them were soft cocks. I think Playgirl eventually went to hard cocks for a minute, but then they went back to soft cocks. But I think that it turned me on, that was my first exposure to cocks, to seeing them. And well, actually that's not true. When I was a Cub Scout, and I would talk about this all the time, and it was the 70s, and before you went into the school pool,
Michelle Renee (she/her) (34:29.026)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joe kort (34:51.146)
you had to go into a shower, you have to shower. And I remember that was my first time, I was eight years old with other eight year old boys, seeing all these soft flaccid swinging cocks, black, white, all colors, all sizes, whatever, being mesmerized, not knowing why. So then you go from that to showers in the gym every day in sixth grade to Playgirl and Cosmopolitan. I think that's where it comes from, I don't know, but I like it and when I tell people this, they look at me like I'm from another planet.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (34:52.795)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (35:18.707)
We must be siblings then because I do the same thing. Like I think that that's why this topic is so important to me because I do really like soft penises. I'm much more drawn to them than I am a hard penis because there's a softness to them. There's this approachability. The velvety texture is different. Like I can just, I can romanticize the soft.
and when I work with people and they see this authentic, real appreciation and excitement for it, that is so healing for them. And it changes the way they see themselves because I see them differently, right? And I get to mirror that for them so they can take that on and see themselves through my eyes. And so I have a real, this isn't just bullshit, oh yeah, love yourself, accept whatever is there, blah, but like.
Dr. Joe kort (35:53.142)
Yes.
Yes.
Dr. Joe kort (36:00.278)
Nice.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (36:13.643)
No, it's like they're just as valuable as a hard penis. And then when I get to last year, one of the things that really hit me, there's two things, well, three things. One, I'm really excited about soft penis and I was not holding enough space for the grief that comes with the people that were showing up on some of our stuff of like, no, like, yeah, Michelle, it's really nice that you're really excited about it, but it's hitting me pretty hard. And I need you to kind of.
tone it back, right? Like that was a big like, whoo, okay, yes, thank you for waking me up to that. I appreciate that. Another thing was I can't experience pleasure because I don't have a hard penis. And you can't, you know, this idea that you can't masturbate and all these like misconceptions, that was something that I really wanted to make sure we broke some of that this year. But the other thing that hit that really broke my heart was like, people would hit me up in my
Michelle Renee (she/her) (37:08.775)
I've been married to my partner for, I think it was like seven years. She's never seen my penis not hard. And I'm kind of want, I kind of miss being able to sleep naked, but I don't want to disappoint her. And you know, we did a little back and forth and, you know, help them get to the understanding that they were, you know, that disappointment was really theirs and not their partners. And like, I was like, has your, has your wife ever been with another penis?
Yes, I go, do you think she's never seen one soft? Like it's just this, it was really his story that he was putting on her. And like how much, what kind of barrier that is in your relationship when you can't show up in your natural state?
Dr. Joe kort (37:53.902)
Yes. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (37:54.287)
Like the things you're gotta be missing out on if you're only allowing yourself to be naked in front of your partner with an erection, like it's just.
Dr. Joe kort (38:01.654)
Well, and think about this. This is where all these myths come in about what's too big and what's too small. Because they're only comparing soft penises in the showers and the locker rooms because that's all we see. And when you're measuring it, you're always measuring it when it's hard. So that's its natural state. That's what we've manufactured, the natural state. Rather than the natural state is when you're soft too. And there's nothing wrong with that. But, you know, and I don't know if you... Oh, go ahead.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (38:25.463)
Yeah. Well, and I just want to say like, and what is the bullshit about what size penis is acceptable or valuable? Like there's a, I keep saying there's a whole nother week of just plain old penis appreciation, but I don't have it in me. So if somebody else wants to take it on, I'll totally support them. But about size and circumcision or not circumcision, right? Like it's this, there's so much judgment.
Dr. Joe kort (38:50.262)
No, that too, yes.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (38:53.023)
Some of it is coming from the outside world, but a lot of it, people are being their own bullies in so many ways.
Dr. Joe kort (38:57.738)
Yeah, yeah, they are. Well, sometimes it gets eroticized, right? There's small penis humiliation, where some people like to be made fun of. And when you look at all that porn, they're not small. These guys are not small. It's in their head that they're small. Now there are small guys that like it too. But then there's Locktober, right? Which we're coming out of, which is that is where you like it small. You want it to stay small because it turns you on. It's a power exchange. So there's so much to this. It's erotic, it's shameful, it's normal, it's all this stuff.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (39:12.653)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (39:28.075)
I love it. I didn't find the kink in BDSM world until the fall of 2014 after my first marriage finally ended. It was well past its expiration date. And I went into that community just simply out of curiosity. I identify as a sex geek. What there's this community and I was living in Kalamazoo, Michigan at the time. So just your neighbor down, down 94. And I had a friend say like, I was getting ready to start selling sex toys again. And he said, oh, you should sell sex furniture. And I said,
Dr. Joe kort (39:48.746)
Oh.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (39:56.847)
Sex furniture? I don't know about sex furniture. What is sex furniture? He goes, Oh, you should go on FetLife. There's a whole community of you perverts out there. And I was like, yay. And there's a frickin really vibrant community in little Kalamazoo, Michigan. And just, I showed up at all the events for quite a while where they're like, Who are you? What are you doing? Are you writing a paper? Why are you here? We don't see you playing. We're not.
Dr. Joe kort (40:22.024)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (40:22.839)
And I was just taking it in like a sponge, and I was one of these kind of slow movers. But man, the expansiveness of how you get to show up in that community is, I wish I could, I wanna do an episode on my other podcast of normalizing the kink community, because it's your neighbors. They're just good people with a bigger imagination. Yeah.
Dr. Joe kort (40:34.018)
Yes.
Dr. Joe kort (40:42.07)
Yeah, right.
Dr. Joe kort (40:50.496)
Right, right.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (40:53.176)
So take your soft penis, your small penis, whatever you're showing up with that you think is a detriment to you and take it into the kink world and find out how it can be loved and adored just as much as anybody else.
Dr. Joe kort (41:05.578)
right and accepted. It's one of the most accepting communities really in many ways.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (41:11.267)
Yeah, yeah. I'm also part of the nude nudist community. So there's another space where I'm like, you want to push some of your thoughts about what you think about your body, go into nude spaces and in see who shows up there. Right? It's not what you see in the movies. It's not what your imagination is telling you it's everybody. Everybody's in kink. Everybody's at the nudist places. You don't have to be a certain fit.
Dr. Joe kort (41:33.602)
Yeah. But I'll tell you something in terms of size though, in the gay male community, it's a really, well, I mean, there's puns to all this, right? It's a really big deal. I mean, people you get talked about, if you're big, you get talked about, there's no privacy. It's really, in some ways, I just think gay men never grew up. They're in their adolescence, early adolescence, in some of the ways they think about sex, and it's unfortunate.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (41:43.864)
Yeah.
Dr. Joe kort (42:01.738)
And that may be a male thing, not a gay male thing. I think women, I've always said this, I think women in heterosexual relationship teach men how to mature because they want a mature man in bed, not an immature man, where men with men, it's not necessarily taught or invited or expected that you have maturity around all this.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (42:13.692)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (42:19.779)
Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. Oh, I I'm just so glad that we're having this conversation. I hope that it's taken by whoever's listening to this. I expect all genders, all orientations like to find soft cock week. I say very I think it's pretty clear on the website still. It was last year. I don't remember what's there now, but I picked soft cock because that's what
the word cock resonated with my specific clientele. But I quickly learned that it's very cultural dependent. And so I've really encouraged people to use whatever languaging works for their audience, for their community. But I hope this keeps going. I really love this week. Whether my role stays the same or changes, like,
it will always be there. I've made a commitment to myself. No matter what happens, softcockweek.com will exist. I will keep it going one way or another. But this is, I don't know how it's taken this long for this to show up in the sex positive world. And whatever reason why it hadn't yet, I'm glad that I got encouraged and thank you. I'll just props to Lee again for poking me and saying, so do it, Michelle, you know?
Dr. Joe kort (43:44.478)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (43:46.479)
Do it, move forward. So is there anything last that we haven't talked about that you're like, oh, I don't wanna leave this call and not have touched on a really important topic that just you wanna make sure gets out there.
Dr. Joe kort (44:02.294)
No, I made sure that I inserted everything that I wanted to say in this conversation because it's so important. Exactly. Right. Now, I think it's an important topic. I'm glad you're doing it. And I support all the work you're doing. I think it's wonderful.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (44:06.691)
No pun intended there either.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (44:11.543)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (44:19.291)
Joe, thank you for being a colleague. And I hope that we continue our connection and we can revisit this next year and see what is the last year done for our communities. And have we seen new things pop up, things shift, whatever? Like I wanna keep you in my soft cock circle. Awesome, cool. Well, thank you so much. And where can people find you?
Dr. Joe kort (44:41.762)
Definitely, I'm proud to be there.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (44:48.439)
social media websites, how can they connect with you?
Dr. Joe kort (44:50.282)
Yep. No matter where you go, I'm at Dr. Joe Kort, D R J O E K O R T. Uh, my biggest venue obviously is, uh, tik tok I have 679,000 people on there now. So I'm really doing, I love it. And then, uh, but then if they want to find me on my website, joe Kort.com, and that's where my podcast is now, uh, as of this week, we're selling side shirts, uh, side t-shirts for sides. And one of my side, I love it. I love this. I made it up.
It's one of them say I want to side you so hard and I love The whole pun of it. You may have a soft dick, but I'm gonna side you hard. So that's a you
Michelle Renee (she/her) (45:24.408)
I love it!
Michelle Renee (she/her) (45:29.931)
Well, I love a good t-shirt and I might have to add that one to my, even though my t-shirts don't always represent as a cis woman, I am not a gay man. Some of my t-shirts don't really match because I end up shopping in like gay shops a lot of times. And like today I'm wearing a shirt that says butthole whisperer. That's pretty universal. Yeah, I have a very strong fondness for prostates. I wish I could have one for 24 hours, but
Dr. Joe kort (45:49.626)
I love it.
Dr. Joe kort (45:56.063)
hahahaha
Michelle Renee (she/her) (45:56.795)
I also picked up at AASECT this year, I went down to Mr. S. Leather and I got a t-shirt that says ASLEET and it's got like a jockstrap hanging off of it. It's one of my favorites. Yeah I just, I don't know where I'm going to ever wear these shirts. Like even taking the dog out today I like put a coat on because I just didn't want to look at my neighbors with a butthole whisperer t-shirt on.
Dr. Joe kort (46:10.187)
I love it.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (46:20.923)
But I think I'm gonna have to add a sides shirt to my repertoire because I think it's an important thing to show, to get more people asking questions about it. And I'm happy to do that work of educating the community because it's important and it's inclusive. And that's totally my jam. So we'll get that out there and I'll have to do a little promo of a sides t-shirt as soon as I, I'm gonna go order one. Yeah.
Dr. Joe kort (46:32.682)
Yes, yes, raise awareness. Good.
Dr. Joe kort (46:48.706)
Do it. Thank you.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (46:50.671)
Thanks, Joe, and we'll see you again next year.
Dr. Joe kort (46:54.114)
All right, yes, thank you.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (46:55.527)
Thanks.
