Adelina Adler and Reframing Sex
In this episode, Michelle Renee talks with Adelina Adler, sex coach and sexuality educator, about the definition of sex and how reframing that definition can open up a world of sex possibilities!
Adelina Adler is a sex coach and sex educator based in Wilmington, NC. You can find Adelina on instagram at @askaddyadler. She is the host of Sexplorations! with Adelina Adler on Spotify, The Naked Booth on Youtube, and the host of an online event called Sex Talk Saturdays.
The host, Michelle Renee, is a surrogate partner, intimacy guide, and professional cuddler located in San Diego, CA. You can learn more at meetmichellerenee.com.
For more information about Soft Cock Week, go to SoftCockWeek.com, which includes resources, events, and even soft cock love notes.
Notes from this show:
This is Life with Lisa Ling on CNN episode on Surrogate Partner Therapy with Mirror Exercise can be seen on the front page (scroll down) on HumanConnectionCoach.com
Erica Leroy Episode on Soft Cock Week Podcast
Mish Middelmann Episode on Soft Cock Week Podcast
Joan Price and Jessica Drake's Guide to Wicked Sex
Rough Transcript:
Michelle Renee (she/her) (00:33.847)
All right, welcome back to Soft Cock Week. Today, I am joined by the wonderful Adelina Adler. I met Adelina just recently with a group that I am a part of for professionals in our world of sex.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (00:38.532)
I know, I know. Good. All right.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (00:50.751)
Hello?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:02.511)
Adelina wanted to join us for Softcock Week, which I just love the diversity of people that are showing up for this week. And it's all, a lot of it is really driven by the people, the guests wanting to be a part of this conversation. So thanks for being here, Adelina. Do you wanna let everybody know a little bit about yourself and what you do, what your connection is to Softcock? You know.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:24.81)
Yeah, just a little bit. Uh, nice. Thank you so much for inviting me, Michelle, and, uh, giving me opportunity to be a part of this awesome conversation, this awesome whole project you've put together here. Um, for those who don't know me, I'm Adelina Adler. I am located out of southeastern North Carolina. I'm a sex coach and educator and, uh, kind of founder of a few projects, a host of sexplorations with Adelina Adler available on Spotify, as well as, um,
founder of The Naked Booth, which was an old YouTube channel aimed at bringing awareness into sex work, particularly stripping and full-service sex work and kind of demystifying things around there. I'm trying to presently launch some monthly, maybe soon-to-be bi-weekly talks, free space talks called Sex Talk Saturdays that are open little table discussions where people and strangers can come on together and kind of playfully discuss.
and wax philosophical about sex topics, whatever they wanna do that week. I'm constantly coming up with different things to do. So you can follow me on Instagram at ask Addy Adler, A-D-D-Y-A-D-L-E-R, and see what I'm up to.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (02:43.755)
I saw the post about the sex talk thing and I was like, ooh, because part of my history is I used to run these groups when I lived in Michigan called Sex Geekdom. I don't know if you remember that group. Like they were an international group that had little hubs all over the world and my hubs.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (02:55.115)
Oh, I love that.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (03:01.518)
I know that there's like some sex geeks that host like a camp or something like that. That's what I've heard. Ah, okay.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (03:06.551)
Well, that's a different organization. There's Sex Geek Summer Camp. Yes, this was sex geekdom, like kingdom, but geekdom. And at least the way that I ran mine, it was kind of like a munch in that we got together at a restaurant, but it was more instead of free conversation, we would have a topic planned for that night. And it was like a once a month thing. And I lived in West Michigan and I ran a couple of groups, one in one city and one in another city, because
Adelina Adler (She/They) (03:11.918)
Mm-hmm. Ooh, I love that.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (03:24.407)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (03:33.411)
heaven forbid driving an hour was too much for some people. And so we did both spots, but it was nice because there was a group in Ann Arbor and in Chicago, and it kind of put us right in the middle. And I just love that kind of space that just really invites these, the kinds of conversations that we're having with Soft Cock Week, honestly, it's just up for you have a broader topic option, right? So I'm gonna have to join you.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (03:35.947)
Hahaha!
Adelina Adler (She/They) (03:44.47)
That's perfect.
Mm-hmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (03:55.263)
Yeah.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (03:58.914)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (04:02.295)
one of those and just pop in and see what kind of geeky conversation pops up.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (04:03.348)
I'd love that.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (04:07.934)
Yeah, it was wild. I didn't expect it to go into the spheres it did, which is kind of what I was hoping for. That's why I let it kind of go freeform just to see where people took it. And honestly, this first time around, there was like two people, but we still managed. It was still such a nice little intimate space and we did delve into some really interesting topics. Did end up talking about sex work and demystifying it. So nice little wraparound package there.
But yeah, it's always a fun thing. You never know what you're gonna get.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (04:39.959)
Yeah. And I mean, demystifying sex work can't be talked about enough. I think this is the... I think of it as kind of like the way we got to marriage equality was people starting to come out of the closet and talk about like realizing your neighbors are the people that are affected by these discriminatory laws. And I think the same thing about sex workers, like they're your neighbors, they're all around us.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (04:51.555)
Mm-hmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (05:00.334)
Mm-hmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (05:06.631)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's humanizing it.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (05:08.779)
Some of us are privileged enough to really talk about it. I know that's just like for the gay community. It's not something everybody has the privilege to be open about. And thankfully, that's been shifting a lot. But for sex work, it's still, you know, it comes with so much taboo, so much discrimination, even for the sex work that is absolutely legal. Right. And that's such a problem, such a problem. So.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (05:16.359)
Yeah.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (05:27.212)
Mm-hmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (05:31.29)
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (05:36.476)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (05:36.779)
I'm all a big yes for more of that.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (05:39.746)
Yes, I've been dying to do this series on the podcast about value systems and the kinds of values that we externalize and place on sex in what's considered a normalcy kind of thing, and how some of those ideas can actually be very detrimental and harmful, like purity, morality, like all sorts of these things that have been enmeshed in the identity of sex. And yeah, just kind of seeing how that plays into
like the Madonna whore complex, all of these sorts of things. So yeah, I'm definitely gonna be digging in.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (06:15.101)
And then there's gotta be a chapter on the whore-iarchy about...
Adelina Adler (She/They) (06:17.951)
The whore-iarchy! Oh yes, but make me a queen there, yes please.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (06:22.255)
Well, I mean, as a surrogate partner, as one of my job titles, it's such a hypocrisy of under these, yeah, it's like I get, you can see these viral articles go around about, you know, sex workers who give hand jobs to the disabled, right? And everybody's like, bless them, you know, but the same,
Adelina Adler (She/They) (06:30.15)
Yes, how some sex works better than others. That's a lot.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (06:44.974)
Less than, yes, but you do it for a fiver on Craigslist. Oh, that's a meth head. You know, like there's these such these wild ideas. Uh, there's a lot of congruencies. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (06:52.951)
Yeah!
Michelle Renee (she/her) (06:56.511)
Yeah, it's, there's, there's a lot of stuff around that. Yeah. That's a, that's a really good area to have multiple conversations around because again, chapters, right? It's just, there's so much tied up in it. Awesome. Yeah. So back to the soft penis. I can't wait till you hear my, my outro for this podcast. I just created it the other day. Cause these are, these are being recorded.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (07:08.366)
Mm-hmm. Ah, there is some-
Adelina Adler (She/They) (07:16.183)
Yes, back to our buddies!
Adelina Adler (She/They) (07:21.378)
Hahaha
Michelle Renee (she/her) (07:25.971)
in advance enough that I have all these episodes scheduled out. So I had to finally record my outro and I started with like, I clearly love talking about softcock. It's so much fun or something like that. So I can't wait to have that flying around. And somebody is going to do something with that, I'm sure. Anyways, so what do we want to talk about today? We've covered a lot of different topics in softcock this year.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (07:38.131)
Yeah.
T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T
Michelle Renee (she/her) (07:53.579)
And this is a new podcast for Soft Cock Week. So it's like, oh, we've hit it from so many different places and I'm sure we're going to have some overlap and I'm totally okay with that. But we really want to talk today about kind of reframing sex. I think that's the overall.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (08:03.414)
Oh, we're good.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (08:08.718)
Mm-hmm, reframing sex, because I feel like it's the overall preoccupation. I remember this first came up, well, a friend of mine and I always waxing philosophic. When we were first beginning sexplorations we had to have this discussion. We're like, okay, but if we're gonna be talking about sex, let's define sex. How do we philosophically or metaphysically break it down to
come up with something that is applicable, as applicable to all conversations surrounding it. And I think it's important, especially when we think about, I mean, it's soft cocks and the preoccupation that some people have with, you know, sometimes difficulty maintaining erections or things like that, or like all of the insecurities that come around. It's because of this idea that we have about sex, like this...
weird standardized presumption, right? That it has to involve insertion, that it's heteronormative a lot of the times. I'm like, oh, so what, lesbians aren't out here having sex then? Like, we think about, yeah, the real sex.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (09:19.019)
It's the real sex, right? It's the official sex. I think we're both old enough to remember the Bill Clinton era of like blowjobs isn't really sex. You know, and I heard that come up in a, did not have sex with that woman. She just, yeah, anyways. But like that came up in a conversation, speaking of these spaces to talk openly about sex.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (09:30.862)
Oh yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. I did not technically sleep with that woman. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Michelle Renee (she/her) (09:47.811)
Before COVID, there was a group that met monthly here in San Diego called the Sexual Empowerment Circle. And what I loved about it that was a little different than my sex geeked-um groups back in Michigan, the sex geeked-um groups were really built out of my participation in the kink and polyamory world. So we got a lot of kinksters, a lot of non-monogamous, and I was like, wouldn't it be cool if we could get some monogamy people to show up so we could have a...
Adelina Adler (She/They) (10:13.333)
People.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (10:17.651)
a bigger conversation, just more diversity. Yeah. We did not see that happen in our sex geek world back in Michigan, but in the sexual empowerment circle, we did see a much more diverse group of people. This whole question of is a blowjob sex actually came up and I was like, what year is this? I thought we put this to bed with Clinton.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (10:21.23)
Cybers.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (10:47.694)
Well, like, but it's such a thing. Well, it's something I always talk about too, like, because that came up during our kind of ruminating over this too, like for some people, a blowjob isn't considered a sexual act, sex. It is a sexual act, but it is not sex necessarily for them. And for another person, person B, it might be all of that and more. Like there might be intimacy attached to that.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (10:47.711)
but it's clear that we haven't.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (11:16.438)
Some people feel it's more intimate even, depending on what end you're on sometimes. And it's always important to have these conversations ahead of time, before the bedroom, to make sure everyone is on the same page. And also that goes along with cyber sex. We were talking about things like cyber sex and phone sex, which don't necessarily provide physical proximity, but still involve multiple persons participation and check off some of the other boxes we discussed, like it being intentional.
intentional, continuous and erogenous kind of arousal. Like we've stinctually referred to these practices as sex, then like we were trying to find out like, is there a definition then that can explain why. Ultimately, what we ended up landing on was the experience, cause I felt it had to be like a subjective experience to a certain degree of intentional, continuous,
erogenous arousal involving two or more persons for it to be sex. That way, and that was important, like there were some notes there, like you can't report on anyone else's experience. So it's an individualistic thing. You can say, I had sex with this person, but did they have sex with you? I don't know, it's still subjective. Healthy sex then, under that definition, is when that experience is shared, and then,
Michelle Renee (she/her) (12:35.515)
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Adelina Adler (She/They) (12:41.85)
unhealthy sex is when it's exploitative or not shared, anything like that. Some are intense and indirectly erogenous and still feel meaningful and intimate. Like, this can be like how, yeah, like phone sex can be considered sex, then it's still this continuous intentional erogenous arousal that's involving two or more persons. And I don't know. So that was like the most standardized edition we ended up coming up with. But, um...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (13:11.215)
That's, it's needed. Like this is, I think of these conversations as quite the opener to discussing like relationship agreements, right? Like what is, if you're practicing anything other than, I guess, fucking do whatever you want. These, all these things have to be discussed.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (13:23.474)
Mm-hmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (13:34.922)
Yeah, yeah. And some places, I remember going over this in one of my SHA conferences, and there was a gentleman there from Germany, we were discussing like explicit consents and things like that. And he's like, it's so weird to hear you guys like mulling over these things. Like, it's just not that much of a thing in Germany. Like these things are just kind of understood. And I went, well, that's it speaks to the differences culturally then because
Michelle Renee (she/her) (13:59.503)
Mmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (14:04.062)
over there, sexuality and sexual topics are less taboo to be discussed. It's very pragmatic. It's approached very pragmatically. Whereas here, we occlude sex is everywhere and nowhere at the same time. It's very present, but at the same time, very mystified. There's a lot of implications of what it, quote unquote, should be.
or should look like, but nobody wants to talk about the nitty gritty. You know, it's birds and bees. It's hidden behind medical terminology. It's, it's very dry. It's very, um, what do I call that? Like sanitized. Like it's, it's odd.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (14:41.451)
It's such an important, like not, I don't wanna say it's a needed part of the human experience because I wanna make lots of room for the asexual community. But for a lot of people, it is such a big part of what it means to be a human being. And yeah, and yet, and yet it's so interesting if you're outside of the sex therapy world and you're just in a regular talk therapy, how little it gets.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (14:56.974)
part of your interaction, how you relate. It's a tool that we relate.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (15:10.975)
it gets asked about, like in intakes, it's like it's cordoned off into like the secret dark corner that if you're gonna talk about it, oh, you have to go to a sex therapist or.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (15:14.547)
Yeah.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (15:19.767)
Yeah.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (15:23.646)
a specialist, like someone who's willing to talk about this because we're not. Like it's so wild. It's wild to me because we have. Mm hmm. And the thing. Yes.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (15:30.943)
It's wild. It's wild, but I'll say this. The one I used to think, all therapists should be talking about sex. And I went to a small conference here in San Diego pre-COVID that the topic of the, it was for regular therapists and the topic of the conference was pleasure. And the discomfort, I mean, they were talking about bringing pleasure into the therapy room. And it was about,
all kinds of pleasure, but we always like railroaded over to the sexual pleasure, right? And the discomfort of some of the therapists in that room about even saying the word pleasure in their office. And I was like, this is like, how are you doing this work if you don't know how to talk about sex and blah, blah. But fast forward. And I think now that I've worked in the sexuality realm in the therapy world more,
Adelina Adler (She/They) (16:06.542)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (16:28.483)
I'm kind of like, you know, maybe people should stay in their lane of where they're comfortable because they could do more harm bringing that topic into the room when they don't feel comfortable with it themselves. And so I'm really like kind of, I hope this is like just part of an evolution of one day we get to one day we get comfortable enough with sex that I can go back to that initial thought that everybody should be talking about sex and therapy.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (16:35.818)
Yeah.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (16:41.702)
Mm-hmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (16:46.922)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (16:58.151)
and not being like, oh, please don't fuck stuff up.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (16:58.194)
I mean, ideally everybody could. I think it's ideally everyone should be able to, if they are comfortable doing it and hopefully in another world when sex isn't such a tabooed issue. Yes, that's, that'll be a more accessible thing for a lot of us. I think conversations like this are part of it, you know, it's part of that seed that we're planting. But yeah, it's so important to refrain from sex. Yes, it is.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (17:19.251)
Yeah. That's why we do what we do.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (17:27.758)
Is it? Yes. Hehehehe.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (17:30.531)
It is. I mean, it's job security in some ways, but I kind of wish it wasn't.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (17:35.476)
I would like to not have to. I would like to, I don't think we could ever exhaust the conversations of how to explore pleasure though. So when we don't have to worry about de-stigmatizing and de-shaming pleasure, I think we'll get along a lot quicker. We can branch out and be more creative.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (17:55.075)
I think it's the first part of the, I feel like it's like the first step of the work, right? Of working with someone is to really help to, if they can't talk about it, how do we even know where we're starting in like sorting out where is the work to be done? And then it just becomes a continuous, yeah, it becomes this continuous circling back of like, oh, I noticed that it feels like maybe there was some shame in that statement that you just made.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (18:08.822)
Yeah, exactly.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (18:13.284)
You can't even come into the room.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (18:24.06)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (18:25.099)
Let's go back and unpack that again. And I think when I think of clients that I work with around soft penises, and I've gone from like erectile dysfunction to erectile disappointment. And then yesterday I was talking to someone and they said erectile differences. And I was like, oh my goodness.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (18:42.938)
Love it. Yes, yes, yes. We're going to de-medicalize or depathologize a lot of this stuff. Yeah, like, cause it's normal, honey. So many people go through it. Like, oh, and it's completely fine. I learned about arousal non-concordance and it blew me away. Thank you, Emily Nagoski for all your work because it's so important for so many different facets, honestly. I could talk about that forever.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (18:50.671)
Yeah.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (19:12.562)
but it helps people understand that your body, sometimes it's normal. It just doesn't do certain things. It's a little wacky. We're bags of meat with little brain nervous systems floating in them like, it's gonna be kooky. And it's okay. And there are other things that you can do that you can still have sex with a soft cock. And it still can be amazing and enriching and pleasurable and drive you wild. And...
And that's why I wanted to talk about the reframing sex is a lot of, again, these especially Western scripts that we've been getting, like you have to, the only thing you're learning from up until this point is pornography where everyone's rock hard for like all of the time and they're pounding it and jizzing all over your face like 20 times. Like it's, that's entertainment, honey. That is no more real than the Avengers movie you just watched. Like, and unfortunately, yes.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (20:07.363)
Yeah, not only does it give us a misunderstanding of how erections work, right? Because I do get that. My penis is clearly not working right because I don't get hard and stay hard 100% of the time through sex. And it's like, oh, that's a porn thing, right? But also size, like I know this week is not about talking about penis size, but I mean, if I could talk about...
Adelina Adler (She/They) (20:14.287)
Mm-hmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (20:32.952)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (20:38.211)
the unfortunate pressure we've put on penis owners to A, be hard all the time, to B, have whatever the perfect size cock is in their frame of mind, right? And then the other thing is, like I've had some clients that have just carried so much shame and concern that they were not circumcised.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (21:04.791)
Yes.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (21:04.967)
And it's like, I want to erase all of those. Those three are like the trifecta.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (21:08.398)
Or if they're not circumcised, shame has prevented them from learning how to maintain it, like, keep it clean, all this other stuff, like, they grow up hearing it's dirty, it's this, it's that, it looks weird. It's so unfortunate. It really is. Fun fact, do you want to know why a grand majority of especially highly produced pornography actors with penises have
have large ones, it's for camera angles. It's for the ease of camera angles. That's it. It's because the positions, which are not always the most pleasurable, they are made to be viewed. It is made and framed for the person taking it in, well, not literally, but the person watching. So, yes, and that's why it's just semantics. It is just semantic, and yet it has created this.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (21:42.743)
It's easier to capture.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (22:06.818)
whole cultural narrative of these shoulds that are just not viable in reality when we take them out of that context.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (22:15.375)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (22:18.555)
Finding a partner that is a good match involves lots of different things, right? And I remember when I first started dating, and I'm just gonna disclose, I can handle a lot of size. It's just the way my vagina is built. Other vaginas are built different. Yep, I have, my cervix is farther back. I can handle more length, right? I remember going in.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (22:27.769)
Mm-hmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (22:37.902)
Mm-hmm. Well, they're different shapes too. Mm-hmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (22:45.93)
And even that changes according to the times of your cycle too, per person.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (22:49.747)
Sure. Yeah. Like I going into the gynecologist and, you know, having to have a different size speculum and like all these things like we're all built different. And I remember when I first started dating, I didn't realize a lot of this stuff. Like as geeky as I was, I did not understand that the universal experience varies by every person. Right. And I remember this guy asking me like, Hey, can you handle big cock? And I was like, what kind of question is that?
Adelina Adler (She/They) (23:11.775)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (23:19.123)
And now fast forward, I'm like, that's a real legitimate question. That's what they told, the one person I'm thinking of specifically is like, no, seriously, some people can't. And so there's some downsides to having an extra large penis. There's some plus side to being on the smaller side. There's some other opportunities. There's like, yeah, the fact that people will go
Adelina Adler (She/They) (23:22.956)
Yes!
Adelina Adler (She/They) (23:32.958)
Mm-hmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (23:40.062)
Oh my god. Yes!
Michelle Renee (she/her) (23:48.823)
like medical procedures to change their penis or to change their vulva, breaks my heart because I had a client one time that had gone through some medical procedures, had never even had a sexual experience before and had gone under the knife and ended up with permanent erectile issues and he hadn't even had a sexual experience to say like.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (23:50.859)
Oh my goodness, yeah.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (23:55.392)
Mm-hmm. Me too.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (24:10.765)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (24:15.491)
First of all, I don't think that the size of your penis is what determines if you're having good sex. Like that's a myth that needs to go away. It's such a myth. I'm not gonna go, I could go on about some of my best favorite lovers. Like I've been with all sizes, right? I've been with micro phalluses through very large penises.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (24:20.369)
now.
It's such a mess.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (24:29.795)
I was about to go into details too!
Adelina Adler (She/They) (24:36.294)
Me too.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (24:44.223)
and I have had great sex with all of them. And I have had bad sex with big cocks, right? Like, it does not equate a good lover. And honestly, to be fair, I remember this one time I was with this guy who was actually pretty well endowed and he had good oral skills too. And I was like, what kind of unicorn are you? I didn't know you could have, like so often my experience has been is that they just rely on this, the size of their...
Adelina Adler (She/They) (24:47.019)
Yes.
Yes, absolutely. Because it's not just
Adelina Adler (She/They) (25:06.21)
Hahaha!
Adelina Adler (She/They) (25:12.05)
On the sign, same. No. It's so funny. I remember my time during my stint in OnlyFans, there was a big thing with a cock rating. Like people would send you a picture, they'd pay you to rate their cock. And you know, I always asked, I was like, do you want me to degrade? Or is this a degrading thing? Do you want me to be honest? Do you want me to be overly nice? Or like, you know, gentle. Because I wanted, what do you mean? But.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (25:14.035)
And it's not that good.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (25:36.619)
Yeah. What do you need?
Adelina Adler (She/They) (25:40.522)
It was a secret, there was a secret to this, no matter what, I would always give it a good rating. Because honestly, I would tell them, look, and depending on how they were built, I'd say yours would be wonderful for trying this and that. Like, it's a great cock for maybe like stimulating the shallow part of the vagina, or maybe anal sex would be really good for you to try or play with. And like, no matter what, like I always gave them like a.
Heck yeah, this is a good dick for maybe this. Have you tried these things? And because all of, again, there's great ways to share in pleasure that also don't necessarily even, again, involve the penetrative aspect. And they can, and there are different ways to penetrate too, as I'm learning through the glories of, oh my God, yes. OMG, yes. Now that, yeah. Yes, oh, it is.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (26:32.351)
Oh, that's right. I turned you on to their affiliate program. Yeah. Good for you. I haven't, I haven't dove into it yet, but I mean, from everything I've always heard is it's a great program.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (26:39.682)
Dyeran, it was fun. They go into so many cool facets, like the framing of the situation, all sorts of things, like techniques. It's cool, I have just brushed the surface.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (26:52.98)
I'll put my link in the show notes in case anybody wants to cruise over there and check it out as far as those questions of how do we please vulvas? They're so mystical. Well, I mean, I don't know what they teach on there because I haven't looked at it yet. Well, my first free tip without having to do anything is slow the fuck down. Just slow down. Go light.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (26:54.618)
Yeah, yeah, put it on there. Put it on there.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (27:02.51)
Mm-hmm. Oh, the-
Yeah
Adelina Adler (She/They) (27:11.554)
Yes! Take your time. Savor everything.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (27:21.248)
Yeah, which then goes back to where we were about reframing sex. Right? We just talked about, we just talked about, you know, like I just, we could name off the list of different kinds of sexual activities that we just covered and some of them are penetrative and some of them are not.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (27:24.958)
Yeah. Exactly.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (27:35.583)
Thank you.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (27:39.866)
No, God, a majority of sex starts between the ears. And I believe it was Dr. Ruth who said that, or who started prescribing that knowledge to all of us. And yeah, framing it, framing the moment begins way before the first touch is even initiated. I know a lot of people also, like the biggest thing, a lot of what we were talking about ties to this idea of performance mentality in the sexual world and how we approach it.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (28:05.967)
Mm-hmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (28:09.214)
we are taught to perform, we are taught to impress. Like it's important for us as our standing. Like some of us, our value rides, I feel okay. And I don't wanna talk about gender dichotomy, but because our society is obsessed with it and gender roles and stuff like that, the messaging we get is also gendered. So with women, a lot of times are people who have the experience of womanhood. It's...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (28:25.891)
Mm-hmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (28:36.058)
A lot of our value comes from being a sexual host and a sexual object to kind of be consumed. So you're supposed to moan a certain way, you're supposed to climax a certain way, present a certain way, do you smell weird, blah, blah. So half the time we're in our heads thinking about that and it takes us, that's our performance, how are we, are we good at writing? Cosmo, the whole thing is.
80 tricks to please your lover. And these are all performance spaces. For men, it's an accolade. It's part of how they prove their manlyhood amongst their peers. If they can, nowadays it's if they can make a girl come or make their partner come. Back in the day, it was just slinging around a big hard dick and bedding as many as you could and not attaching yourself to any of them.
But all of these things put us in this performance space. Like I know some partners shared with me that when they were trying their hardest, don't come, don't come yet. Oh my God, you don't wanna be a two pump chump. You know, like these things, these messages we hear, it divorces, it's how unsexy is that? You were stressed the entire time. Like, oh, sure.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (29:51.755)
have a confession. I want to confess a newer kink that I've realized about myself. Because because I feel because I have such an expansive idea of sex and because sex is not about the P IV the penis and vagina sex and I don't know.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (29:58.353)
Oh, tell me, New King Unlocked!
Adelina Adler (She/They) (30:11.979)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (30:15.563)
I think we've gotten away from simultaneous orgasm goals, but either way, I'm going to bring that one back up as like, right? Because I'm like, I don't care. I mean, I'm going to normalize some stuff real quick. When my partner and I started sleeping together almost eight years ago, we had to do some retraining.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (30:20.75)
Yeah, that was like a little achievement unlocked box to her.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (30:32.265)
Okay.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (30:40.919)
And I get this thing comes up for clients with me a lot. They go, first, I'm gonna touch on, because it's the personal story. I have a hard time reaching orgasm with partnered types of sex. So oral sex, PIV, anal sex, whatever that thing is that is not masturbation. And we totally had that issue in my relationship. And...
like most of the time I think it comes down to what is your masturbation habits like. So does your does your masturbation translate to partnered sex? Right. So in the beginning, and I later trained Paul, it wasn't right away, but in the beginning, a lot of times his way of reaching orgasm was through hand sex, masturbation or hand job for me.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (31:16.324)
Mm-mm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (31:36.43)
Hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (31:39.563)
It didn't mean that our sex was a failure, right? And I think that's the-
Adelina Adler (She/They) (31:43.062)
Not at all. I even was gonna say, I don't think it's an issue at all. It's just a re-approaching it.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (31:47.595)
No, to me, to me it's not. But we again, we have these scripts that if you don't have an expansive view of sex could really easily turn into a judgment. Right? What's wrong with this partner because they're not orgasming through PIV.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (31:53.422)
Mm-hmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (32:01.338)
Yeah, that's a judgment call.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (32:07.242)
Oh, and then what's wrong with me? Cause I'm not orgasming with my partner. And there's, am I broken? Ugh, everyone's, am I broken? Something's wrong with me. Training montage.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (32:14.071)
Right.
Right. So fast forward. So fast forward. We've moved and this is like, please take this home and put this to use if it works for you, right? At this point, Paul does not have regular issues with orgasming from whatever kinds of sex he's involved in. But what he does do
Adelina Adler (She/They) (32:28.088)
Yes!
Adelina Adler (She/They) (32:44.327)
Okay.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (32:45.359)
always, as far as I understand, I don't oversee his masturbation practices, but my understanding is that he always uses some kind of sleeve, some kind of barrier between his grip and his penis. So that has changed his sensitivity, right? That changes his sensitivity. He also went through a period of time where he would masturbate with a condom because we were in an open relationship and it was really important that he overcome
his own struggles with staying hard with condom use. It is, we have to normalize it, we have to eroticize it. And so fast forward, we've got a lot of the, I say kinks, but I'm going to go back to a kink. So saying kinks worked out doesn't really work in this story. But I have such a kink for making him orgasm when he doesn't want to. Like,
Adelina Adler (She/They) (33:16.35)
It's a mental block a lot of times. Yeah. Yes.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (33:30.286)
Ha ha!
Adelina Adler (She/They) (33:41.038)
Oh my god, yes. Oh, listen. Me too.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (33:43.551)
in penetrative sex, making him come before he wants to. I'm not a person that really cares for a long PIV session. It's just part of the... I don't want to say ever hits the buffet, but a lot of times it's just not the main course. No. My number one favorite way to have sex is hand sex.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (33:54.06)
Yeah.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (34:00.791)
You can take it or leave it. It's not the main course.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (34:09.955)
Hands can do so much more than a penis can do as far as for my pleasure. So if I had to pick one thing to stick with for the rest of my life, I would take a good hand job all day, any day, right? So I don't care if our penetrative sex lasts very long at all. And I get such a fucking kick out of making him do something he doesn't want to do. I mean, clearly it's still consensual, right? I don't want to. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (34:10.047)
Mm-hmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (34:16.064)
Mm-hmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (34:24.234)
No.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (34:35.51)
within that space, within the conventional space. No, I, yes. No, same. Me too, it's so fun to watch them struggle a little bit and ride and you're like, no, it's fine. You're not leaving. It's good, it's thrilling, it's, oh, it's power. It's a little bit of a power display.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (34:40.339)
It can bring me to orgasm. Like the first time I realized.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (34:50.756)
Yeah!
The first time it hit me, the first time it hit me, I said out loud, oh no, I'm making you cum right now. And that threw me into an orgasm. And I was just like, all right, I have a thing here.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (35:04.202)
It's meant that's not mental space, baby. Oh, it's, it's so good. I do. I'm so curious. I want to know about the training though, because I feel like that's valuable information. Is that something you can share a little? I know he, you talked about some of his practices, coaching aspirations.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (35:09.444)
So then.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (35:18.733)
Yeah, specifically what part of the training? I don't know which part I haven't.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (35:22.166)
I don't know how many parts there are. Just like...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (35:25.411)
Well, really it's about quitting having direct contact with your hand and your penis. Because I don't know who coined the term first. I don't know if it was Dan Savage or somebody else, but death grip. If we're squeezing the cock and we're doing it either really fast, I think it's usually a combination of a lot of pressure and a lot of speed.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (35:34.128)
I love that.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (35:41.756)
Mm-hmm. You're choking the chicken.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (35:55.415)
And I think you and I have been with enough people that we have had the experience of being jackhammered.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (36:04.109)
It's not good and it's missing the mark.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (36:06.051)
I don't know. I don't know, maybe somebody likes that.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (36:11.026)
Like if I'm already in the throes of an orgasm, if I have already had it and I'm in a specific mood, then yeah, like if things have sucked back up into the regions and there's space for it, yeah, sometimes I can make a bit, oh my God, starting just off with that. No, I like nice and slow.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (36:20.065)
Okay.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (36:27.482)
Okay.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (36:31.915)
Well, yeah, so I have gotten to where the slower, slower the better. Like I am taking it back and back and back. And like recently I was on mushrooms and I think I achieved the absolute slowest sex I have ever had. And I was like dialing it in of like, I was so aware of exactly the pace I wanted it at. And it was incredibly slow and it was wonderful. And I just keep going slow and slower
Adelina Adler (She/They) (36:41.185)
Mm-hmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (36:50.607)
UGH
Adelina Adler (She/They) (36:56.459)
Yes.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (37:01.691)
had people, even recently I have a really wonderful lover every once in a while who is great with his hands. And we're not sexually compatible for fucking because he doesn't do slow. And I think I know why. And if he's listening to this, this is your advice if you want to take it, take it. If you don't, you don't have to. But my guess is, is that he fucks me like he masturbates.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (37:10.011)
Mm-hmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (37:17.549)
Hmm
Adelina Adler (She/They) (37:30.694)
Ah, maybe. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (37:33.427)
Yeah, and he doesn't go slow enough and he also doesn't want me on top. And well, I'm a girl that likes to be on top, so we are not fucking compatible, but we are very much hand sex and oral sex compatible. So what is the difference between that and somebody that has erectile differences? Right? I'm still having fantastic sex with this person.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (37:56.925)
Mm-hmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (38:02.654)
And as long as they can find their pleasure in their space as well, like, once they remove that worry, that preoccupation, that shame can just flow into just feeling their body and like interacting with their own pleasure, mutual interaction with your pleasure. It's, it's good. It can really free you to and to play to truly turn it from a proving ground to a play space. Like that's, that's where you want to be.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (38:03.076)
I mean.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (38:06.841)
Yeah!
Michelle Renee (she/her) (38:23.279)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (38:26.967)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (38:31.158)
Forget the accolades, forget all that stuff.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (38:33.008)
I'm thinking about what are the components to that? Like, what does it take to be free in that, as like a play space and not...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (38:45.904)
very performance oriented and goal oriented.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (38:47.982)
Goal, goal, it's goal oriented. Like performance oriented is also linked usually to this idea of goals. Like people think, when does sex end? When does sex end? Usually people will answer when either one or both partners orgasm or climax. And then they say, that's it, it's done. We remove the pressure or the idea that is the end of sex. Sex can be whenever.
and whenever you want it to be, and end whenever you want it to end. You don't even have to orgasm. Orgasming does not equal great sex. It's a great feeling, sure, but they're not mutually, they're not, they don't need to be together for it to be great sex. And like, that's something that a lot of people have never been given the permission to think about or have never really considered. So when people go into it expecting, you know, that goal,
Michelle Renee (she/her) (39:34.808)
Mm-mm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (39:46.794)
they try to get there, you know, one way or another, they make it their preoccupation, then they wonder, am I getting there well enough? Like, that's when you worry about it. Yeah, fourth-liners.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (39:54.655)
It's a single focus. It's like your blinders are on. And this is gonna, if you've listened to all the episodes up to Adelina here, you will hear some repeats here. This is almost like, if I could sum up the last five interviews that I've done for this week, it's like some things here that come to mind is like.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (40:11.906)
Hehehehehehe
Michelle Renee (she/her) (40:19.011)
I just lost my train of thought. I had it here. I'm like, yes, the blinders. I've talked a bit about a situation I've been in recently where I do like a stepped up intimacy program with clients a lot of times, right? And so we always start in cuddling and getting to know each other in a platonic space and practicing communication skills and things in that space. Because once we take our clothes off,
Adelina Adler (She/They) (40:20.571)
Oh, uh, blinders, blinders.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (40:26.434)
going towards the goal.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (40:34.318)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (40:48.931)
like the path we've always known, that really well dug road, right? And I told a story the other day on a different interview about like, we're doing really well in the cuddle space and he was very in his body and able to like really appreciate like the pleasure of being held and how his body felt in that space. And then we took our clothes off to do some body image work. And then suddenly we couldn't enjoy the cuddling anymore. And I say we because
I could, I'm like, you're thinking about your penis. I can tell.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (41:22.718)
You could feel the tension there. I mean, it is palpable. Like it's, it's evident, well at least if you're, if you're a receptive person, it can be very evident when somebody's not in it anymore. Like they're in their head or something, when a shift happens, like.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (41:25.857)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (41:36.599)
Yeah. So, so then, so then, so, so like staying present in, in taking that up as kind of a form of master, not masturbation, meditation, masturbation, meditation, you should do a masturbation meditation. Right. And that is the thing, right. Just getting like, that's something, you know, is a good first step talking about retraining of like, what if we stepped away from going to the fantasy when we're masturbating to doing like,
Adelina Adler (She/They) (41:47.703)
Yeah.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (41:56.119)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (42:05.515)
sensation play on yourself? What does this feel like? Yeah, slowing it down.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (42:07.342)
Yes, just like, even if, and if you don't want to just doing, even if you don't want to just do it by yourself, if you don't want to do your own homework, taking that opportunity, like with your partners, feeling free to just allow that space to be and let it be silly. Let it be awkward. If you feel like it feels strange and new because it is strange and new likely.
Roll with that. It can be a giggly spot. Try asking each other to try different things on each other's bodies and give feedback and just take turns playing and asking and giving each other feedback and just allowing yourselves to just touch and explore. I think that's such a big part of it. Be curious together. Think of it.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (42:55.619)
Yeah, be curious. Yeah.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (43:01.394)
as it's uncharted territory. Now you're walking away from that old sex map that you've been given, it no longer works for you. Now you two or three or four, I don't know, are just remaking this script, which I think can be very exciting. If there is no anticipation or expectation, maybe the world's your oyster.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (43:11.399)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (43:21.467)
What if everything you learned is just bullshit, right? What if you could pretend to not know anything and just follow, like, what does it feel like? I think us kinksters, I'm saying us, I think I remember you're a kinkster. I remember when I first got into that world and I had this guy over, you know, date off of OkCupid or something like that. And I was like a very, I look back and I just go, I'm just so glad I didn't die, right? Like I...
Adelina Adler (She/They) (43:27.068)
Mm-hmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (43:32.77)
I am a kinks periwif.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (43:47.958)
Oh, yeah. I mean, you were singing, I was like, oh, bold, but I've done it too when I was young.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (43:49.527)
I would just invite some random stranger to my house, right?
I was, I was.
I was not dating, I was tasting the buffet, right? Like it was not about finding a partner, it was about what haven't I done in my first 38 years of life, right? It was, I got married really young and like when I, the first year of quote unquote dating was just really quote unquote fucking, right? Occasionally I'd even get a dinner out of it, but I didn't even care, right? Like it was just this, I have this, yeah. I have this guy over and...
Adelina Adler (She/They) (44:02.259)
Yes, yes, yes.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (44:08.927)
Mm-hmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (44:20.398)
Yeah, it's exploration. It's exploration.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (44:26.219)
and he goes in my kitchen and starts pulling all these gadgets out of my kitchen drawers and I am just like, what the fuck is happening here? And this was like my first introduction to like, um, pervertibles, right? That, right? There's so much stuff in your kitchen that, that can be used, you know, for sensation.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (44:39.419)
I love that, yes.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (44:44.906)
I've never heard the term pervertible. I just love it. I call it MacGyvering.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (44:49.543)
Oh, I'm like, I thought pervertible was an over arching terminology in the kink world.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (44:55.358)
It probably is. Listen, girl, I have been a kingster for a hot minute, but I have just broken into like, from the outskirts of meeting like a few here and there, I've just broken into like the community itself. So I'm, I'm still learning. Thank you. I'm still learning all the nomenclature. Like I love pervertables That is a great
Michelle Renee (she/her) (45:09.178)
Oh, well welcome!
Michelle Renee (she/her) (45:13.579)
Okay, you need a tour of a Lowe's or a kitchen store, like the kitchen department.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (45:20.358)
I walked, I came back from the Lowe's with these like a bundle of like they were supposed to be skewers and I was like, are you gonna tie them together and just like, yes, they're amazing. Yes, I have a back scratcher that I just got from my bar. It's a very good switch.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (45:30.435)
Paint stir sticks.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (45:37.731)
Yeah, there's so much stuff, so much stuff. Anyways, so you could go shop your kitchen, whatever you want to do, and you can try different touch with your hands, with different parts of your body, with objects, like fabrics. Oh my goodness, jump into your lingerie drawer and pull out the satiny things, right? And what do those feel like going across your body?
Adelina Adler (She/They) (45:53.006)
fabrics.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (46:01.659)
Fuzzy things for me.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (46:05.495)
Right? And do that exploration. In the kink world, we call it sensation play. Right? There's a word for it. Yeah.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (46:10.222)
Yeah, sensory play, baby. Oh, it's so good. It's so good. And if again, you're a person who gets very distracted by your surroundings, that's why I'm blindfolded. Sensory deprivation play could be a very fun thing to do. Muffle your ears, put some music in your headphones, put those little eye shields on and just let your body go. That, that, that
Michelle Renee (she/her) (46:33.815)
And that's for the receiver. If you're doing this partner, that blindfold part works really well for the receiver to not feel self-conscious. But also for the giver, if you feel self-conscious putting that blindfold on your partner so they're not watching you move across their body or whatnot can really help. And that comes, okay, so that circles back to another thing I wanted to say was, I think an important part to work on in this training is body image.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (46:50.125)
Yeah.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (47:03.942)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (47:04.547)
If you're uncomfortable being naked in front of another person, that's going to show up in your confidence level in sex. Again, it's another barrier to being present if you're like, oh, but how is the light hitting me? And, oh, but I got to stay under the covers or, oh, like I have to like, yeah.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (47:14.132)
Yeah. Yeah, it does.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (47:26.614)
And again, that performance ideology where it's like, I have to present myself perfectly for this person. Let's, Lord forbid my makeup be smeared or my, yeah, it's wild. Or my body looks frumpy. Yeah, my body looks so frumpy. I like, oh, I look terrible. No, it's, ugh.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (47:38.239)
or what I think of my body. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (47:44.727)
My tits aren't what they were when I was 20 and you know, my, I have these tiger stripes now and in, in honestly, like, yeah. Oh my gosh.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (47:49.494)
Body worshiping is a good little treatment for that. Like having your partners just tell you, like go down the list and worship your body and praise it and like give it nothing but compliments. Even at first, if you're like, no, ew, that's a lie. The more you hear it, look, it is cognitive dissonance training. Like the more you hear that message, the more you even tell yourself that. Look at yourself in the mirror and at first, while it may feel like a lie,
you go down the list and you start calling yourself beautiful and you love these things about yourself, eventually your neurology will catch up with that and you will start believing it and you'll start feeling it and the more you are around accepting like vocally appreciative or also physically appreciative of people like that go. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (48:39.491)
Do that for your partner. What a gift. If you are participating in partnered sex, I've had a couple different scenarios. One was a guy I saw years ago. I'm a plus size woman. I'm less plus size than I used to be, but it doesn't change the fact that like, I think all sizes can have body image issues. But at that time, my biggest, like the thing on my body that I was the most insecure about were my thighs.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (48:44.845)
Mm-hmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (49:00.228)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (49:09.111)
I'm a thick girl, right? And I had this guy who just showered me with praise about my thighs. I didn't say anything to him that was the thing. That was the thing he was authentically super into about me. And I saw him for probably six weeks and it was such a healing six weeks of getting to hear that and getting to get more and more comfortable with hearing it. I won't say I was ever 100% right there with him,
Adelina Adler (She/They) (49:16.68)
Mm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (49:22.762)
Yeah, tech ties off!
Michelle Renee (she/her) (49:39.011)
The movement that I had in my own self image at that space and time, that was also like, I was new to the kink community and in getting on FetLife and seeing the myriad of bodies that are represented and people, there was somebody that wanted exactly what you had to offer, right? Like there's somebody out there that thinks you are exactly what they want and society in the regular world wasn't teaching me that at all.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (49:59.476)
Mm-hmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (50:07.158)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (50:08.863)
And so like it was huge for me to get that affirmation from him. And nowadays like the lover with the great hands, one of his things is telling you how beautiful your pussy is. Right? That's just part of his play is just the verbal worship. Right? And so many of us
Adelina Adler (She/They) (50:25.634)
Hmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (50:33.73)
I'm a sucker for it.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (50:36.003)
Yeah, so many of us, I do some genital confidence workshops once in a while for vulva owners. So many of us carry, again, these scripts about what our pussy is supposed to look like, what it's supposed to smell like, what it's supposed to taste like, right? And for so many years, I didn't like oral sex because I couldn't understand why anybody wanted to be down there, because I didn't want to be down there. Right, I had this like, why would you, why?
Adelina Adler (She/They) (50:47.278)
Yeah, what it's supposed to look like, smell like, everything. Be like, mm-mm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (51:05.471)
I don't understand. And then I did the work with Betty Dodson and I learned to love my vulva and that changed how partnered sex happened for me just because I wasn't in my head. It was part of that learning to have a more consistent ability to orgasm was learning to love my body as it was showing up. And this goes for penis owners too. I used to have a blog.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (51:16.834)
functions. Mm-hmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (51:27.799)
Yes.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (51:31.232)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (51:33.287)
long story where it went, I'm not going to go into that. But it was a lot of me doing a public diary of my experience getting into kink and polyamory as a previously married woman, in talking openly about my body image issues. And I got a lot of men responding to me saying, thank you for talking about this. This affects us too. They just don't get, I think, the space
Adelina Adler (She/They) (51:56.042)
Yes.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (52:00.123)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (52:02.571)
You know, I'm going to speak in heteronormative ways here for a second. If I know I don't even have to speak in it, whoever your partner is in sex, whoever your partner is in sex, don't hold those compliments back.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (52:11.469)
Yeah.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (52:18.656)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (52:20.407)
Like give them that verbal worship, even though you think you're worshiping their body in some form of fashion by through your touch, the verbal can make a lot of a difference for them. Know that everybody goes through this stuff. Everybody is going through this.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (52:32.69)
It really can. One of my partners, like, he is sculpted. The man looks like a fucking Adonis to me. And like, it just stands around and I'm like, ooh. Like, it's one of those times where I'm like, always visually like, oh God, you're attractive. He didn't think so. Like, he's just been receiving compliments now, left and right, of people going, no, you look like a male model. Like, your, when I first started,
And I'm one of my biggest things that I do. I am a very, I do give compliments constantly. Like I am complimenting the heck out of him. And at first he was so uncomfortable with it. He was so like, he'd get awkward. He'd be like, no, stop. Like, no, I have a tub tub. I'm like, you do not have a tub tub. And even if you did, you were, oh, nom nom. So like I started just gassing him up. And now he does.
take he does receive the compliments and like he it's made a change in how he yeah how he carries himself how he comforts himself he feels very confident now the more he's been exposed to those positive messages like i've seen a huge difference in his esteem and how it just leaks into other areas of his life and it's so yeah it's important you never know because we're already receiving bombardments of to the contrary of how inadequate we are
from left and right. So I see nothing wrong with uplifting each other as much. Like all bodies are beautiful. And it's, we should be telling each other that since we never get that from the rest of society. You know? It's so true.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (54:11.371)
Yeah, there's a exercise, there's an exercise we do in surrogate partner therapy, where we stand in front of a mirror with each other naked.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (54:18.934)
So we did, yeah. We did that together too.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (54:21.123)
Yeah, and it's one of my favorite, there's a link on my website, I'll put a link to it in the show notes. There was an episode of Lisa Ling on CNN, I think, I can't remember what the show, something with Lisa Ling, whatever it was called, where they talk about surrogate partner therapy, and they do show this mirror exercise, and...
Lisa decides to become a part of the exercise. She asked if she can take her clothes off. It was very vulnerable of her. She hadn't let anybody see her body naked since having her recent child. It was maybe like, it was just a couple of months old maybe. I remember I've been in that post-pregnancy body and I cry watching that episode because she's so vulnerable in it. I think when I do it with clients, I cry.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (54:50.011)
I know, that's huge.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (55:12.163)
Like my clients, usually it's the first time they see me cry because we talk about our stories around our bodies and how we got here. And I let them see, like, it's not necessarily tears of grief, but tears of appreciation because this body has been through hell, right? And it's so strong and it's gotten me through so much stuff. But there was a time when I couldn't have said that, right? There was a time when I would have been like,
Adelina Adler (She/They) (55:29.398)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (55:36.283)
story of your life.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (55:41.743)
Oh, like, just be critical and not appreciate like the positive side. I don't think you have to be body positive, but body neutral would be like where I aim to get people to. Because if you're at least in neutral, if you can show up in a vulnerable space with your partner or partners, then you can be present for what's happening. Yeah.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (56:03.982)
Mm-hmm. Then you're receptive. Mm-hmm. You could be more receptive rather than, mm-hmm. I always think of it, I had a thought here too, because like when people's bodies change, especially if they gain weight or something, like the language and terminology that's often, oh, you let yourself go, blah, there is a story that is usually attached to bodies changing that...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (56:09.527)
You can be present for pleasure.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (56:30.898)
somehow becomes a value statement on your ability to tend for yourself and your priorities and your capabilities. There's so much extra baggage tied on to that. And it doesn't, it's never accurate. It doesn't take into account the actual circumstances going on in people's lives. And yet that's the story that sticks. And that's why so many people just.
lose themselves to that mythos. And it's such a shame because like you said, this body is a testament to the story that you've been through your struggles, through your triumphs. And it's carried you here and it has sheltered you and taken care of you this whole time. Like it's a dual system here. It's not just you taking care of your body, your body is also taking care of you. It is taking love, it give it pleasure. It is deserving of it. I feel like so many times,
that block makes you feel like you don't deserve it. Like, I don't look good enough for this. I don't. And ugh, what a gross lie they've fed us that we have to look a certain way to deserve to be touched, to deserve to feel good.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (57:43.659)
It feeds the diet industry, it feeds the beauty industry. What's funny is you said you deserve pleasure and Adelina and I literally just process something that came up for me in my personal life, a weird little brain weasel, like questioning if I deserve pleasure. And I wrote on my mirror in my bathroom, that my guest bathroom in a big marker, I deserve pleasure.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (57:46.734)
Mm-hmm. It just feeds pockets.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (57:57.993)
Mm? Mmhmm?
Adelina Adler (She/They) (58:02.535)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (58:12.459)
And I left the markers there and I had a client in there the other day that left his own, which said, I am worthy of hope. And I just, I love, like, I'm just gonna leave this up there and let clients just keep building on it as they go in to use my bathroom. And we all have our things and we all still deserve pleasure. And so we've got to find a way to get to the neutral place where we can show up and relish in it. I remember,
Adelina Adler (She/They) (58:19.195)
Yes!
Adelina Adler (She/They) (58:26.227)
Oh, God, yeah.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (58:34.926)
Exactly.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (58:41.043)
Betty Dodson used to use the term, the phrase sex pig. If I could help everyone become a sex pig, where we show up and we take it all. It's like rolling around in the mud.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (58:44.91)
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe
Adelina Adler (She/They) (58:54.158)
It's okay to take it all. If you have permission for pleasure, honey, like everyone, like you don't have to show up as anything, but what you are and eager to explore and come there. And if somebody gives you, you know, shames you, or throws daggers your way, then you shouldn't be engaging with that kind of person in the first place. Find people who enrich you, like enrich the pleasurable experience. And oh my God, you'll never turn back. Once you...
Share pleasure and sex from the space of just authenticity and just unabashed willingness and presence. Ugh. It's the most liberating thing. Like, guaranteed, y'all. It is.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (59:38.359)
It's spiritual. It's if I'm an atheist, but that's my church, right? Like to be in the space. Yeah. When I think about the times that I've really felt like a sex pig, cause I don't always feel like a sex pig, but once in a while, Betty's voice comes into the room. And it's funny when I look back at it, I'm not in that space with PIV sex, the way my body works. It's really interesting. My orgasms from,
Adelina Adler (She/They) (59:43.607)
That's Hosier's church right there.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (59:56.855)
Sweet!
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:00:08.175)
from penis and vagina sex is like a one and done. It's a different orgasm. When I orgasm that way, it's just done. But when I'm playing in another way, any, really any other way, well, I guess anal sex and PIV for me is a pretty similar orgasm. Not the same, but as far as how it leaves me feeling afterwards, I feel very depleted. Where...
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:00:35.554)
Okay, yeah, yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:00:37.531)
If I'm having sex, like oral sex, hand sex, I can get on the wave, right? And I can just start riding that wave and I'll say sometimes, like, I think I could do this all day, right? And that's the sex pig, right? That shows up and I will take as much space as people have in their ability or timing or calendar or whatever. Like
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:00:43.614)
Yeah.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:00:48.59)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:01:02.999)
That, like, there's just, there's a limitedness of what you can experience if your sex has not been expanded.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:01:11.346)
Yeah. Also, while you're expanding, give yourself permission to suck at it. Like for a little bit, like that's huge. Like as, as somewhat, cause everybody's bodies are different. You're gonna learn like sometimes things that work with one person are not gonna transfer over to another person. Take it as a blank slate every time. And I think honestly that's made sex more fun for me now. Like rather than coming into it, trying to already be a sex expert and be like,
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:01:18.393)
Oh!
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:01:40.334)
I'm already so good. You know, making it a matter of my ego. Again, performance, here we go. Coming at it from a humble space of, I am but a student of your body. I want to learn particularly, not only is that hot as hell to hear on the other end, being like, oh, you want to learn me? Okay. But it can be also very hot and humbling to just let someone guide you through the intricacies of their delight. Like, oh, that's such a cool, just a...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:01:45.75)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:01:56.067)
Huh?
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:02:10.546)
interactive kind of experience. And like, if you're bad at it, it's okay. That's why I think thinking of it as a play space is so helpful because when you're playing, you're allowed to fumble a ball. You're allowed to make mistakes. You're allowed to do this. I don't like the sports analogy because that's still like competition and all that. But you're allowed to learn a task and you don't have to be a perfectionist. You don't have to be good at it at first. But thankfully practice, practice helps.
and it's more reason to play. Like, keep doing it.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:02:41.915)
I just was talking with a client last night about this, that when you don't, in the beginning, it's like learning how to ride a bike, right? You have to really think about it, you know, and eventually you get to where you don't have to think about it. You don't have to be in your head, but in the beginning you are in your head because you're trying to, it's going to be different with a new person. It's a different body. They come together differently. Yeah.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:02:45.095)
Mm-hmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:02:58.728)
Mm-hmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:03:05.034)
Ask questions, ask so many questions. Don't be afraid of being like, how does this feel? Again, it can be really hot. Don't say like, am I doing this right? Cause that again, weird puts sleep. Yes, that puts the onus of it on you again. And it puts you in your head, be like, what would you like me to do? Show me how you wanna be touched. Don't be afraid of having them bring their hand down, help you figure it out or like give you verbal instructions and be back like, yes.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:03:16.852)
What would make this better?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:03:33.475)
watching each other masturbate.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:03:35.366)
Yes. That's so cool. It's so fun.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:03:37.123)
That's so helpful and really scary for a lot of people. So like, you know, if you want to stretch yourself, right? How do we change? We get out of our comfort zone. Yeah. But it gives you so much information if you watch someone masturbate. Like you get such an idea of, again, pacing, pressure, all these things. Like you can learn a lot.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:03:43.374)
Hmm?
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:03:47.082)
The challenge, it's a challenge. Yeah, little challenges can help.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:03:55.15)
Mm-hmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:04:04.498)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:04:06.331)
And also it's not limited to how they masturbate. Like maybe you can teach them something new that they hadn't experienced before. We were talking about the value of porn the other day. And I'm really porn neutral. I think that there's times when porn is really great and there's times when porn can be problematic. I think it's really dependent on every situation.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:04:14.05)
Mm-hmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:04:30.718)
It's context dependent for me too. I'm like, I mean, again, it's like any other tool. An excess can have detrimental effects. If you take it a certain way, it can have detrimental effects, but yeah, same. I guess I would consider myself also porn neutral.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:04:43.691)
Yeah. Yeah, I was talking to Jojo Bear, who's a sexological body worker and hands on intimacy guide here on the West Coast. And we were at dinner the other night, he helps with soft cock week, he'll be on. We have our soft cock soft opening on the first day of soft cock week. So by the time this comes out, it will have already passed. But Jojo is part of that.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:05:06.394)
I like it.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:05:12.607)
And he introduced me to something that Joseph Kramer created called porn yoga.
where it's really teaching you how to use porn to your benefit, right? To practice with porn. And I think we kind of hit on it, I think when I was talking to Erica Leroy on another episode of this, as to like watch porn and consider the pacing. Like how is, like if you try to, if you stroke yourself at the same rate as the sex is happening, right? And see if you can keep like
follow, like kind of join with the people that you're watching and be in it more with them. I was just like, oh, that's a really positive way to use porn or using it for ideas, right? Like using it for ideas. When I use porn, I totally, like the person I'm watching, I like to watch a lot of like erotic massage porn. Like that's
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:05:57.88)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:06:02.088)
Yeah.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:06:07.362)
It's fun. It sounds fun, honestly.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:06:21.678)
Oh, I love the erotic massage ones. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:06:25.155)
Yeah, with usually, usually it's a it's a it's a female bodied receiver and giver is generally the ones that I like the best. And and I'm totally like coming with the girl on the table, right? Like, I'm in it with them. Like that's as close as I can get to fantasy. I have aphantasia I don't see pictures in my mind. So if I'm going to fantasize, I have to use porn to fantasize. Really, it's the only thing that works for me.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:06:29.809)
Mm-hmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:06:40.385)
Yeah!
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:06:45.814)
So you use that. Oh, that's so cool. Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:06:54.508)
So like there's some ways that you can use porn. Like I would love to see some, if anybody finds a resource for soft penis porn.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:07:03.882)
I was just thinking that, honestly. It has to exist. It has to, somewhere.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:07:06.188)
I would.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:07:10.215)
Somebody posted the question on AASECT Listserv, the American Association of Sex Educators, Counselors and Therapists. And I even emailed the person that originally posted it to say, if somebody back channels you information, please send it my way, because I want to be able to put it in our resources. Same thing with, was talking to someone on here the other day, Mish Middelmann and he was talking about Literotica
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:07:16.169)
Mm-hmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:07:23.306)
I'm good.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:07:29.9)
I'm sorry.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:07:37.948)
Oh, that was my first.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:07:37.991)
and they don't have a section. They don't have a section for soft penises, but I tweeted them to say, hey, if you build it, they will come, right? And I think there's a market for these things. We need to see ourselves in the porn that we consume. Yeah.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:07:49.71)
They will.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:07:55.046)
Yes, representation is important. It really is important. And like, that's brilliant. That's genius, honestly, because, again, that's also visibility brings out all that obfuscation and that confusion and that, oh, am I am I damaged? I don't see anyone else like me. So it's so important. And if listen, I know that ethical porn and the creation of it is now in the upswing. There's a market if someone out here listening is a producer.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:08:15.459)
Yeah.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:08:24.102)
wants to make their own. Let's do it!
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:08:26.679)
Yeah, I'm going to reach out. I'm just thinking out loud here. I am going to reach out to Joan Price. She's a great senior sex educator. And I don't think it needs to be just a senior. I want to see it represented in all age groups. But I'm wondering, she did a thing with Jessica Drake a few years ago, a senior porn, specifically for seniors. And I just wonder if there's any of that represented there.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:08:37.634)
Mm-mm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:08:40.742)
All ages, we've experienced it.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:08:53.874)
on their tune. But it definitely has to be importantly, it has to be importantly that it's all ages because if they think, oh, it's just something that happens to the elderly and things like that, they'll, yeah, it has to be full. No, it's not, it's not. Guaranteed, I've had so many partners, all ages. And it always made me so sad and upset because they would get very self-conscious and one of them,
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:08:55.439)
Yeah, because we're going to need to build a directory.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:09:07.511)
And it's not. I see it in all ages.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:09:23.07)
made it about me, like they turned it over to me and made me like try to make it about myself. I was like, excuse me, like first off, there's no problem here. Like second off, it's okay. Like you don't have to attack me about this. Honey, I'm not attacking you.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:09:32.291)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:09:36.619)
Yeah, which is, I'm sorry that happened because I think one of the messages I try to say is like, to the partners of people experiencing erectile differences, that it's not about them. It's not a reflection of how they feel about you. So for you to have that like, not like to be like lashed out against that's
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:09:49.2)
It's not. No.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:09:56.938)
Mm-hmm. Like I got that it was his own insecurity, but like people who, who may not, it, no, it's, it's not about, it's not about you. It's, it's, they are having this own struggle in their, in their mind and body about, about what's going on with them. And again, it's normal people. It's completely normal and it won't ruin the moment. I promise. Also hydrate everyone. Did it, it's okay to take little breaks in between to touch each other, to enjoy each other and work with what you have.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:10:01.315)
But somebody might not. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:10:17.805)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:10:22.871)
Yeah. I wanna see some hot sex with a soft cock in the room. Well, but it wasn't recorded, was it, Adelina? I'm sorry.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:10:29.206)
I had some hot steaks with a soft cock. I tell you, I... I'll go back and record. I'll find the guy again and just be like, all right, let's do a thing where he rubbed it on me. Like...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:10:40.203)
recreate. I mean, we would promote, you know, like we would totally promote. I have, sorry, I have an alarm going off. I have to get it to stop vibrating. I think we're okay. I have to check how we're doing on time here. Okay. We've, we've, we've gone way over what we had planned to do, I think. So,
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:10:47.534)
Mm-hmm. We would promote it. We would cross promote it immediately. Okay, you're good.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:10:56.658)
I remember it rocked my world. It was... It was revolutionary. Heh. Oh, absolutely.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:11:07.342)
Oh, oh no. Well, yes we do, unfortunately.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:11:10.007)
We have to wrap.
I have a one o'clock, so.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:11:18.451)
Do we feel like we covered this enough or do we need to have another like, do we need more conversation? Do you feel good, Adelina? Is there anything that you'd want to add?
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:11:27.635)
I don't know, I think we covered a nice wide range.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:12:31.579)
Oh, Adelina, we could probably talk for hours, which has generally been my experience with you.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:12:35.19)
Oh, we have, we can. Yes, that's what happens. You get two sex geeks in a room together. We just go all over the place.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:12:39.989)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:12:44.771)
We'll have you back over on my other podcast and maybe I'll jump on your podcast and we'll just I don't know. I think you and I have plenty to talk about as always. So I think I think what I want to wrap for my end. I'm gonna ask you what like you're going away thoughts are but I hope that today we've given some ideas of like
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:12:49.995)
Yes, please.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:12:55.528)
Mm-hmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:13:02.67)
Sure, you start, you start.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:13:08.943)
How to, like, no matter what your erection status is.
We gave some great tips on how to show up more presently in sex. We've talked about an expanded idea of what sex is. We've tried to hit on some of these scripts that we have around performance and what it means to show up for sex.
I'd love to hear from people that you were going to do this again next year. What were your favorite things? Did you learn something today? Because we covered a lot of different stuff and I love that you're open to talking about some of your personal experiences because that's how I show up in these kinds of spaces. So it was nice to be with you in that. Is there anything that you can think of that you want to add as we wrap?
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:13:45.934)
Mm-hmm.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:13:55.566)
Oh, me too, honey. This is a personal thing we talk about.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:14:07.342)
Hmm, honestly, I think we like, like you said, we went through so many things. I just want people to understand that it's okay. Like no matter what you're coming from or what you are at the time of presenting, like just embrace it. You are okay, you are not broken, you are not damaged. You deserve pleasure as you are. And don't be afraid of it. Come embrace it and play with it. And don't be afraid of...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:14:35.331)
and play with it. Don't be afraid of being bad. Go with it and enjoy it and take this as a new adventure. Really make it yours. Sex has been given to us as this pre-packaged supposition when it really is something that's personal and created for you and by you. So we're clinging.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:14:37.046)
being bad, just go with it and enjoy it. Take this as a new adventure and really make it yours. Sex has been given to us as is this pre-packaged supposition when it really is something that's personal and created for you and by you. So reclaim it and have fun doing so. I think that'd be, that's the nice little goal. Have fun.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:15:03.504)
Yeah, have fun.
Have fun, yeah. Go in your kitchen, find some fun things to do. That and let's go back to like praise the goddess, Emily Nagoski and let pleasure be the measure, right? You love her. Yeah.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:15:06.418)
And go in your kitchen, find some fun things to use.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:15:17.542)
Yes, we love her. Read that book too. Come as you are if you want to any of her work.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:15:24.695)
Yeah, it's in all the show notes. I feel like every time we have one of these talks, I bring her up in some way. Usually it's around teaching about responsive desire, but teaching about, you know, arousal non-concordance, super important too. So yeah, thanks for being here, Adelina, and we'll bring you back next year for sure.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:15:31.458)
and the film. Mm-hmm.
and I'll put a coordinates. That's the big one for me. Yeah. Thanks for having me. All right, thank you. I'm looking forward to it and I'm looking forward to having you on this explorations as well. Take care.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:15:50.816)
Awesome. Thanks everybody.
Adelina Adler (She/They) (01:15:55.478)
and then we stay.
