Rock the Bedroom with Lee Jagger

In this episode, Michelle Renee talks with Lee Jagger about pleasure and how learning to give erotic massage can be a gateway to better communication, for all genders.

Lee Jagger is the CEO of Rock The Bedroom and has helped thousands of women feel more confident in the bedroom using her signature erotic massage techniques. She has made it her mission to normalize conversations around sexuality, deliver sex education in a professional & classy format, and help women have an amazing sex life even if intercourse is impossible. She's had hands-on experience with over 2,000 male clients to gain the knowledge that she now shares with women. You can learn more at ⁠RocktheBedroom.com⁠. You can find Lee on socials at @rockthebedroom.

The host, Michelle Renee, is a surrogate partner, intimacy guide, and professional cuddler located in San Diego, CA. You can learn more at ⁠⁠meetmichellerenee.com⁠⁠.

For more information about Soft Cock Week, go to ⁠⁠SoftCockWeek.com⁠⁠, which includes resources, events, and even soft cock love notes.

Notes from this show:

⁠Come as You Are⁠ by Emily Nagoski

Rough Transcript

Michelle (00:01.632)

Yay, we're here for Soft Cock Week. I'm Michelle Renne, the founder of Soft Cock Week. We can talk about that in some other episode of how I got here, or maybe we'll bring it up here, who knows. But I'm talking today with Lee Jagger, and I think we're going to have a really great conversation, just to teaser here. We've done a little off-screen talking and getting to know each other, and I've looked at her stuff, and I am really in alignment with her. So I'm excited to start this conversation. We've kind of held back so that...

Lee Jagger (00:01.814)

Yeah, I'm a chef.

Michelle (00:31.5)

It can all be recorded, but I'm very, very excited. So Lee, could you introduce yourself?

Lee Jagger (00:38.074)

Yes, I would love to. Thank you for having me, Michelle. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited. So I'm Lee Jagger and I'm the CEO of Rock the Bedroom and I've helped like thousands of women by this time connect with their guys in the bedroom and like up their intimacy level without having intercourse. My specialty is erotic massage.

And I just, it's my mission to normalize conversations around sexuality and help women to be more confident in the bedroom and find their voice and understand men a little bit better.

Michelle (01:17.896)

in this. It sounds like we're on the same mission of like de-centering penis sex, right? Penis and vagina sex. Because I am a person, I don't know that I would say that I never need a penis in the room anymore. But let me say that my favorite sex is hand sex. And it sounds like that's exactly what we're going to talk about today in a way. I'm going to give you.

Lee Jagger (01:28.765)

Yes.

Michelle (01:47.088)

the space to really break it down your way. It sounds like it's a lot about us as women learning how to give erotic massage. Yes? Great. Yes.

Lee Jagger (01:55.634)

Yes. Yes, I teach women. I mean, I teach guys, but I don't teach guys erotic massage to do on women. That said, there have been many times when female clients of mine have said, you know, after I gave my guy an erotic massage last night, he turned the tables and said, hey, I think I could modify a couple of those things for you. Do you mind if I try? I'm like, yes.

Michelle (02:20.848)

Perfect, perfect. Yes, I do want to honor that is the work that you do is helping women learn how to do this massage. And I just always have to throw my vote of confidence behind, especially for soft cock week, that if you are a penis owner and you don't have regular erections or they're just unreliable, that is not my favorite kind of sex. I don't need your penis. I need your closeness.

Lee Jagger (02:27.894)

Yes.

Lee Jagger (02:46.478)

Night!

Michelle (02:49.396)

your attentiveness, your attunement, your touch, and it sounds like you're kind of helping them learn that through their partners being able to give that to them.

Lee Jagger (03:02.57)

Yes, absolutely. And there's, I mean, everything you said just now, 100%, 100% agree with, and really hope that men hear that. That, you know, what guys think that we want, maybe not, maybe that's what you wanna give, and that's what you think, you know, that represents you performing as a man and providing and all the things that you think we want.

But that's really hard for a guy to really, to let it sink in because the thing that happens for a man when they can't perform through an erection, like they've been conditioned to believe that they need to do all their lives and they're ashamed if they can't do, these guys, like their ego has taken a punch in the gut when they can't perform in that way, even when, and like my guy,

who I demonstrate, like I teach online training, and I have practiced on this guy, I can't even count. I just have completely lost the number of how many times I have practiced, my hands have been on this guy's privates. And even to this day, he's like, yeah, I know you say, it's okay if I'm soft, but it's still really, really hard for me to not feel like I'm lacking in some way.

It's just, it's so ingrained for men. And I mean, thank goodness you're doing this because Michelle, you're an ingredient in the unraveling of that mental background chatter for guys. So thank you for doing this because guys really need to hear it's okay.

Michelle (04:43.82)

Yeah. Well, for someone, yeah, I love men. I work a lot with men. I won't say I used to say primarily with men, but I do. I've kind of have a I do work with women, but it's very different work. It's like almost like couldn't even be on the same website, kind of different work. Right. So I can't say that I primarily work with men because that's not true. But I work with people that I really care about.

And when they have this kind of, what I feel is a distorted view, and I know it's not their fault, like you said, it's been ingrained in them since before the beginning of time, right? But when I hear them, like, well, not even hear them, I read their bodies, right? Like I was in a cuddle session the other day, and it wasn't, it was not a cuddle, I should back this up. It was not a platonic cuddle session, it was some sex coaching stuff, and we were cuddling, right?

something I do in all of my work as a professional cuddler, it doesn't never come into the space because cuddling is delicious and such a great way to connect with another person. So we had done some cuddling, fully clothed. We did a session where we took our clothes off and all like he went from being able to enjoy the cuddling to all he could think about was why wasn't he hard. And I could feel it in his body. It was just energy in the room. He didn't even have to say it out loud, but he wasn't present anymore.

And it wasn't as juicy that connection was just not there. And I know it's a lot of work. I know it's a lot of work to get over that kind of ruminating thought process, but the ruminating thought process is part of the reason why the erection can't show up, right? Even if it was an option, it can't show up if we're just thinking about it.

Lee Jagger (06:11.522)

Yeah.

Lee Jagger (06:23.891)

Exactly!

Lee Jagger (06:30.346)

Yes. Yeah, it's we're getting in our own way. And now we're in our brain and in our thoughts, and we're not actually in our body enjoying the sensations. So there's ways to get around that for sure. There's different, um, I mean, like I, I tell people, yes, I teach erotic massage in hands on techniques, but really truth be told, if you pull back the curtain, I'm really teaching communication. There is a hands on element to it.

But really mostly it's communication. Because if you can talk in the bedroom, you can talk anywhere in your relationship. And there's like communication woven into, okay, this is what I'm gonna do with my hands on your body. But you gotta make it a sneaky ninja thing so that people aren't like, okay, now we're gonna work on our communication skills. That's just so unsexy. Now.

Michelle (07:25.412)

It's not sexy enough, right? I always say, good sex is not a list that you can read in Cosmo of the 10 tips to blow her mind, right? It is about being able to talk about what you like and what you'd like more of, what you'd like less of, and empowering your partner, no matter what the genders are involved, to be able to feel safe enough to speak up and take a risk to ask for the thing that you've really wanted and you're just afraid to talk about.

Lee Jagger (07:53.882)

Exactly. Yeah. And it's I mean, I used to see that all the time. Just in I used to have an office where I provided erotic massage to men. And maybe I can get into my backstory and explain why, why I why I'm an expert at what I do. Maybe I should back up. I should do that actually.

Michelle (08:10.284)

Yeah. Please go for it. Because we both we are coming both in the space as professionals that are also very much guided by our personal life. And I'm sure some of you would probably a story before the working in erotic massage that even got you to erotic massage. Go back as far as you would like, and I will let you talk about that.

Lee Jagger (08:32.206)

bit. Yeah. So I'll dip my toes just a little bit into because I, I Michelle, I am the last person on the planet who should be an expert in any of this stuff. Like you, I could not have predicted that I would be talking about this at any point in my life. So, okay. So a few years back, I, I remember lying like belly down on my bed, counting out the coins

in the bottom of my purse and a few bills, and all the money from my purse added up to $28.23. And that was more than what was in my bank account. And so I was in a tough spot, financially speaking. And as I'm scooping up all of the change from my bedspread, my phone rang. And it was a woman who saw my ad on Craigslist. I'd placed an ad looking for work.

And she said, hey, do you want to do erotic massage? You can make a ton of cash with doing these happy endings. And like erotic massage, giving happy endings to men, I don't know. Here I am with my mouth hanging open and I'm thinking like me, let me tell you a little something about what my sex life looked like up until this point. So I wasn't exactly

what you would call a tigress. Like, I had a pretty low libido and I was starting menopause. So sex was getting a little uncomfortable, dryness and whatnot. And half the time, my boyfriend could not maintain an erection. So that was getting in the way. And all I knew was, you know, intercourse, I wasn't big on blowjobs or anything. And I had no idea what to do with my hands.

You know when a guy, he like pulls your hand towards his penis, silently asking you to tickle his pickle?

Lee Jagger (10:35.05)

Like I'd be thinking, oh my God, I hope he gets hard fast so he could just stick it in and, you know, so we could just get on with it already. Cause I don't know what to do with my hands. And so me doing erotic massage as a job was ridiculous. I was just simply not qualified. And I certainly didn't want to do that kind of work. Cause it just wasn't, it just wasn't, that was not.

Michelle (10:44.176)

Go to what you know.

Lee Jagger (11:04.562)

something I ever wanted to do. But here I am, I'm looking down on my bed at all the change. I needed the money, honestly. And I figured I'd just do it for a couple of weeks just to get ahead. So I took the job. And on my first day, I was determined to be that sexy tigress and pretend to be all confident so the guys would give me a big tip. And you ever watch the show Seinfeld?

Michelle (11:34.109)

Hmm.

Lee Jagger (11:34.95)

And you know the character Elaine? Yeah, and her crazy like dance moves. And she thinks she's so cool busting out some funky moves, but really she just looks super awkward. And that was me, except unlike Elaine, I was not oblivious to my awkwardness. I was feeling it very deeply in my bones. And especially the happy ending part, I was just.

Michelle (11:37.061)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (11:40.862)

Yeah.

Lee Jagger (12:02.702)

fumbling around down there. I had no, really no clue what to do other than, you know, plain old up and down. That's, we all know that. And that's pretty well all we know, typically. And there was no warmup training on a cucumber. No, I was thrown right in, naked man on a massage table. And at one point during the happy ending, the guy pushed my hand away and he finished himself off.

Michelle (12:13.146)

Mm-hmm.

Lee Jagger (12:32.33)

And I just stood there with my oily hands, trying not to fidget, silent, and not really sure where to look or where to put my hands. And I hated that feeling. I hated feeling incompetent. And typically in sexy situations, I was used to the guy just taking the lead and me just going along with whatever he wanted to do. I had no creativity in the bedroom. I didn't...

Michelle (12:37.059)

Uh huh.

Michelle (12:48.815)

Mm-hmm.

Lee Jagger (12:59.946)

I didn't know how to rock a guy's world other than opening up my legs and letting him go at it. And what it came down to is I just had no game. I had no power in the bedroom. And I was thinking, like I could have booked it out of that office with my tail between my legs and never go back. But I thought, Lee, this is time to put your big girl panties on. And dang it, I just wanted to be great in bed.

And I wanted to know how to touch a guy confidently. And I knew in my bones that this job was my opportunity, my practice ground to step into my power. So instead of running back to my comfort zone, I leaned in. And I did that work for not two weeks like I had planned, but for years and years. And I accumulated, get this, over 2,000 clients.

Michelle (13:33.402)

Yeah.

Michelle (13:58.928)

Hmm.

Lee Jagger (13:59.698)

and you do anything 2000 times and you're gonna get pretty good at it. You're gonna work out some kinks.

Michelle (14:04.808)

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. It's like, whether you're doing it for work or it's just the thing that you really love, right? You get real good at it, because you like to practice.

Lee Jagger (14:15.938)

Oh, exactly. And so by practicing on all these guys, I discovered over 69 different ways to touch guys' privates, to bring him to his knees. And when a client who couldn't get it up, they had erectile dysfunction of some degree, I figured out exactly how to knock his socks off. I felt like Beyonce struttin' onto her stage and owning it.

And a surprise side effect was just sexy time with my boyfriend became, it immediately turned around. And all of a sudden I was that wildcat, always in the mood. And first time I gave my guy an erotic massage, he said, what you doing for the next 50 years? Like he was looking at me like, I was the best thing since pizza and beer. And yes.

Michelle (15:09.764)

Yeah, I have two comments. Can I give you two comments? Tell me the 69 numbers on purpose that you have over 69 moves. Okay, I just wanna say, cause we all love that number.

Lee Jagger (15:16.926)

It is on purpose. Yeah, because I know more. Yeah, I know more than 69, but someone said, no, just make it 69. 69 is still a big number, and people will remember it.

Michelle (15:26.316)

Yeah, I love 69. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then my other thing is like sexual confidence. Just like being able to make, like I always say like, I wanna make your brain explode.

Lee Jagger (15:38.674)

Yeah. Yes. Like it feels like we're servicing the guy, you know, like we're going to rock his world, but really we are rocking our own world. That's the most important thing. Like that confidence, just going, Oh, I'm, you have no idea. The jackpot you just won by being with me. Like having that kind of confidence. Oh my gosh. It's so

Michelle (15:39.684)

Right?

Lee Jagger (16:07.418)

Good. It's just, it transformed my relationship. And all my girlfriends around me are like, what are you doing? What what's happening with you? And sparks are flying with me and my guy. And they're like, God, could you teach us a few things? Cause they're, you know, marriages or relationships, they're boring. They're sex. Their sex life is like non-existent. So they're like, Hey, share some tips. So I did.

And some marriages were actually saved because of what I shared with them. And so here's me helping my friends have a happier relationship or getting guys off in my office. I was having way more fun helping my girls. So yes. So after 2000, it was, I lost track after 2000 clients. It's probably closer to 3000, but anyway, I I'm just like, okay, I think I could teach this.

Michelle (16:50.761)

You gotta follow your yes, right? Like, yeah.

Lee Jagger (17:02.974)

So I gave up my office and I just, now I just work with women and I teach them everything that I learned. Ha ha ha.

Michelle (17:10.504)

pretty good with my hands and I'm like, I want to know what I don't know. Right? So like, I'm like, okay, sign me up.

Lee Jagger (17:16.734)

Yeah, right. Because the more you figure out, the more you're like, wow, there's so much more. I didn't even know. Yeah, I've been interviewed on podcasts by women and well, couples even who are into the lifestyle, who are very, very diverse in their sexual appetite. Like very diverse. I was actually intimidated to be on their podcasts. And...

But what I would do was I would give them access to one of my little courses and go, okay, I would, you know, I would love to hear your feedback. It would give us something to talk about. And every time they come back and go, oh my God, I thought I was really good and very knowledgeable. This is stuff I talk about like every day. And I realized how much I did not know what to do with my hands. So.

Yeah, the more you know, the more you realize you don't know.

Michelle (18:14.948)

Yeah, and I think it, and for me at this point, I feel like I just love those moments to learn something new because it doesn't happen as much as I wish it did or experiences that I haven't had yet. Sometimes clients will try to figure out, like find something that I've never done before and then make it part of our time together. And I'm just like, okay, Lee, sign me up. I'm ready to see what 69th technique I don't know yet.

Lee Jagger (18:24.918)

Lee Jagger (18:45.582)

Yeah, it's really kind of hard to process because we think of up and down. And when I say erotic massage, women automatically think, oh, so I'm whacking my guy off. And no, I don't even teach this. Like you'll never see that in any of my training. Because it's supposed to feel like a massage. Like it's supposed to be, yes, it's low.

Michelle (19:10.024)

Well, it's a full body experience, right? I mean, it's kind of like if a guy comes into sex with me and just goes for my genitals, right? Like it's a full, I want my skin, it's a big organ, right?

Lee Jagger (19:18.647)

Yeah.

Lee Jagger (19:25.098)

Yes. And guys will say, no, I do want you to go straight there. But that's only because they haven't experienced the alternative. Like when, when you do incorporate the rest of his body and slow things right down and not be, you know, like a rocket towards that finish line of an orgasm, then, Oh my gosh, things get really juicy. And that orgasm ends up being way more intense.

and longer and just much more pleasurable when you do slow things right down and just kind of meander a bit, work your way towards that bullseye. But you gotta train guys to be open to that. Like, trust me, good stuff is coming. Just wait for it.

Michelle (20:05.617)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (20:12.208)

And they can translate that back to your body because we also need things slowed way down. Right. So we, we aren't that different. That's the thing that like, if you look at, if you look at like how we, how our genitals come, like evolve through the, the growth process from embryos through, right. We are working with the same stuff, just in a different order, right. It's all the same stuff that has made little tweaks and changes based on our gender, but like,

Lee Jagger (20:19.294)

Yes.

Lee Jagger (20:37.137)

Yeah.

Michelle (20:42.312)

that please like I do that with my partner I go okay I'm gonna touch your penis the way that I want you to touch my vulva and I slow it way down and he's like holy shit right like it is different it is different to slow things down

Lee Jagger (20:45.28)

Right?

Lee Jagger (20:59.006)

It really is. And that's why like a lot of women say, okay, so do you have something you can teach guys? Because they're the ones who need to know how to do us, right? I'm like, no, you can teach your guy. Because I can teach your guys something, but it may not be relevant to your body and how you want it. So when you start teaching or when you start touching your guy in these particular ways and asking these particular questions,

and talk and opening up communication in the bedroom, you're kind of training him on how to do it for you. So it's like this personalized instruction that the guys get when the women know how to touch a man, they can teach the guy how to touch them. Super important. And then it just opens up communication.

Michelle (21:35.944)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (21:46.824)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I happen. I happen to teach the masturbation side for women on occasion. I do a workshop here in San Diego once in a while, kind of Betty Dodson like body sex workshop. And it is one of those like, A, you've got to learn how to touch yourself so you can express that to your partner. But in this case, it's also really useful to have them experience the touch so that you can say, see how that feels. Now I want you to treat me like

Lee Jagger (22:17.066)

Yes, yes.

Michelle (22:18.412)

So put the two together and you'll have all the wisdom in the world.

Lee Jagger (22:21.434)

Right? Exactly. Yeah. And a lot of women don't know how to touch themselves. They don't even know what to ask for, let alone demonstrate it for a guy. So thank you for your service.

Michelle (22:34.392)

You're very welcome. Well, I come from a background where I also wouldn't think of myself teaching this stuff right now at this age. And like 10 years ago, I would never have imagined that I would be on this end of it because I was hated sex. It was very coercive sex that I was having in my previous marriage, which really kills your sex drive. People for anybody listening to this, if you're having sex that you're not a hell yes to or your partner.

is having sex with you and you can tell they're not a hell yes, you're not going to make it better by pursuing it despite that. Right? Nothing, yeah, nothing disconnects them from their body more than the not wanting to do it. Like really, like they, anyways, there's a whole other, go to my other podcast, the intimacy lab podcast, we'll be covering this in depth, depth real soon.

Lee Jagger (23:05.13)

right. You'll just push them further away.

Lee Jagger (23:14.615)

Oh yeah.

Lee Jagger (23:20.648)

That's a whole thing right there.

Michelle (23:29.66)

But like to be able to communicate, like you say, you're teaching communication. I hate to oversimplify life, but pretty much most things can be handled through communication as the answer to the first answer to every question, whether it's relationship problems, sex problems, problems with your kids. It all comes back to how are you communicating? And

Lee Jagger (23:42.604)

Yes!

Lee Jagger (23:54.114)

Absolutely.

Michelle (23:55.296)

Solving your childhood wounds. The other, that's the other thing is like, solve your childhood wounds stuff and learn how to communicate and we can solve a lot of problems.

Lee Jagger (24:00.118)

Right. Yeah. And the thing is a lot of people say, like I hear all the time, yeah, well, I do communicate with my guy. He just doesn't listen. There's communication and then there's really effective communication. And a lot of us did not grow up with role models on what effective communication is. So it's a whole skill.

It's a whole skill. You would think, okay, we all eat. So therefore we must all know how to be really good cooks. No, we're not. It's something you got to go to school for. You got to, you got to take a little training for to, to learn that skill set. Communication is no different. Everyone's talking. Not a lot of people are listening. And a lot of people are talking in a way that makes their partner defensive. So they can't hear you and they're just defending themselves. And so that is not.

really great communication and we need more of that for sure. Especially in the bedroom because there's a lot of communication going on up here. We're thinking all the things like, oh God, I told them last week. I didn't like that. No, why does it keep doing all that's going on inside? But we don't know. We don't have the words to say it out loud so that we don't hurt our partners feelings or we don't start a fight or whatever. So you get to find ways.

Michelle (25:00.614)

Yeah.

Michelle (25:23.097)

Yeah.

Lee Jagger (25:26.01)

to get it out in a way that makes your partner go, oh, awesome, okay, thank you for saying that. I get it now. Otherwise, it's just, it's not gonna work.

Michelle (25:34.991)

Yeah.

Michelle (25:38.712)

I also, I had the thought of like in present, like what is happening in the present moment. I had this flashback while you were talking of my previous marriage where if something worked one time, it was the go-to thing every time because I get it, vulvas are complicated. Penises I'm learning are much more complicated than I ever realized until I got into my work, right? And it's like, what, could we just ask what would feel good right now?

not what felt good yesterday, or what you think might feel good. Like maybe you think it's going to feel good and you can change your mind and say, actually thought that was going to work. That's really not what I want right now. That that's communicating and like not just being mind readers and punching in the recipe. Like I had a friend that used to go say a story, something like her, her partner at the time would be like, OK, he rubs my boobs like for two seconds. And then he goes to my crotch and then like.

Lee Jagger (26:18.495)

Yes!

Michelle (26:35.396)

You know, he does the obligatory couple of licks of oral sex and then he can stick it in kind of thing. And I'm just like, that sounds like a great time.

Lee Jagger (26:43.966)

Right? Oh my gosh. That's those are most of my clients. It's people mostly come to me because it's boring after all these years doing the same thing. Yeah. Grabbing the left boob, did it like it's the it's choreographed.

Michelle (26:59.804)

Yeah, it really needs to start with what would feel good right now. And it might not even be that it's a sexual answer, but maybe I need something else first.

Lee Jagger (27:09.398)

Right, like what? Yeah, why don't we focus on pleasure? Please focus on, let's focus on pleasure, not orgasm. Because if you are in the depths of pleasure, you probably have orgasm, but you can be aiming for the orgasm and kind of miss all the pleasure along the way. Sounds kind of dumb, but this, I mean, we're so focused on the end result of an orgasm.

Michelle (27:19.101)

Hmm.

Lee Jagger (27:35.614)

And that's why so many people are let down by, oh, that was like a failed sex session if we couldn't reach an orgasm. And a lot of guys with the soft penis are not reaching orgasm because women don't know what to do with it.

Michelle (27:52.6)

Well, they don't either. Here's the thing. This is what I learned. This is what I learned last year in softcock week. Well, I've learned a few things. One is that there is a big grieving process that has to happen. I don't want to negate that in any of this conversation. The grief of having erectile changes and for whatever reason, whether it's age, cancer, stress, whatever is coming into play. Right. I get the grief part. The other thing that I learned was that a lot of

Lee Jagger (27:54.166)

and they don't either.

Michelle (28:21.064)

penis owners don't understand that they can still masturbate and still have orgasms, even without erections. And so like we have it from your mouth that soft penises can have orgasms.

Lee Jagger (28:33.63)

Yes, 100%, 100%. And I think what goes on in the mind of a man who's masturbating is they're trying to get it hard. Like that's the effort. This is why I'm doing this, to try to get it hard. And I can't get it up and so, oh, it's failed. Whereas they just, if they let that go, no, you don't need to have an erect penis in order to have an orgasm. Or let's just back up, in order for it to just feel good.

You know, like a soft penis feel still has all the, the nerve endings alive there. And the nerve endings do not go away when you're soft. They're still there. So, I mean, yes, there's greater sensation sometimes when it's erect, but there's so much sensation to be had and very pleasurable sensation, even with a soft penis. So yeah, let's just let that go. Like the whole.

Michelle (29:30.796)

I think it's a mental block sometimes. I'm probably going to totally screw this story up, but I had a colleague of mine try to explain to me, usually the erection is the thing that happens that makes them go, okay, it's time to have sex. I need to pursue orgasm or whatever it is. It's the erection shows up and then everything happens after that. So with the erection not showing up, it kind of...

Lee Jagger (29:33.367)

Totally, yeah.

Michelle (30:00.704)

messes up the whole usual path. I also heard that on a podcast I listened to, Barry McCarthy, who writes really great books about ED and premature ejaculation, both those things, he mentioned that in a lot of heterosexual relationships, that the man stops initiating

Lee Jagger (30:05.174)

Right! That domino is listening.

Michelle (30:32.412)

His erection not being a given, like it's not predictive anymore. And they're so afraid, so afraid it's not going to show up, right? That they don't even pursue it anymore. And so this idea that we need to start really educating both, like everybody involved, that everyone can experience responsive desire, right? It might just be that they have to like learn what turns them on and what turns them off.

Lee Jagger (30:37.538)

Oh yeah, he doesn't want to go down that road if he just knows.

Michelle (31:01.728)

and go with the flow. I have to ask my partner, well, expectations for sex, huge desire killer for me. We go into a space of wanting to connect with no expectation that it means that it has to be a sexual connection. 99% of the time, it goes to sex. My brain cannot handle the expectation, probably because of my previous marriage.

The expectation just, I say total boner killer. And so we go in with no expectation and we cuddle and we talk and like little hand, you know, gestures down the arm, real light, starts to turn on the skin and then it turns on the brain. And you know, these things happen. And you know, this is, you know, big work in Emily Nagoski's Come As You Are, which should be like a Bible next to the bed of everyone's, you know, bedside table.

men need to learn that that's not just a female thing. Like they also can experience responsive desire and I'm just putting myself in the shoes of the men that are getting the erotic massages from the women that you are teaching and thinking they very well could be having the same experience of laying down oh I'm going to have this massage okay and then like things come online that maybe weren't expected.

Lee Jagger (32:02.934)

Right.

Lee Jagger (32:25.446)

Oh yeah, there are many, I've lost track of how many cases that I've heard from my female clients when she says, okay, so my guy hasn't been able to get it up in eight months or whatever. Like it's just, it's not happening no matter what we do. Even the medication, all that doesn't, it's not really working. And then she just slows things down. And I teach women.

You were not going for it. If the orgasm happens, great, but that is not the purpose of what you're going to be doing on your guy. And you tell him that upfront, this is just practice session. I'm just, I learned a few techniques from Lee Jagger and I'm just going to give him a go. This is just practice. And I tell her to tell him that it's just practice. That way, no expectation, right? And then she's going along super slow and she's just, you know, trying to figure things out, but

her hands are on his penis. So everything is really good in his brain. And he's just being loved on and cared for and cherished in this unique way that he just kind of relaxes and then bam! And he's hard as a rock. And in a lot of cases, after that, he doesn't have, as long as they keep practicing the erotic massage and, you know, letting go of the...

expectations and all that. He doesn't have an ED issue anymore. That has happened so often, I can't even tell you, especially if it's a psychological thing. I mean, if there was surgery down there and nerves are cut and sometimes you can't get that erection back ever, but in a lot of cases, it can come back even when it's been written off, even by the medical, like the doctors said, yeah, no, just it's not gonna happen anymore.

Michelle (33:54.961)

Yeah.

Michelle (34:07.502)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (34:12.999)

Yeah.

Lee Jagger (34:19.57)

Yeah, it's come back. So, and if it doesn't, it's okay. That's the greatest part is just like start with that. It's if it doesn't, I had this one guy in my office. He said, yeah, I used to think that intercourse was the pinnacle. Like that's where all roads lead to for a man. That's just, yeah, all roads lead to intercourse because that's what felt the best.

Michelle (34:21.211)

Yeah. And if it doesn't, it's OK. Like it's like.

Lee Jagger (34:49.358)

him but then he said but I gotta say her hands can do more things than her vagina can like we've got a lot of dexterity here a vagina can't do too many things you know so do I and that leads me to think like most people are looking for ways to have better sex but really at the heart of all of that

Michelle (35:06.685)

Yeah.

Lee Jagger (35:18.462)

intimacy. So it doesn't matter what type of sex you're having, you know, if it's kinky, if it's oral, if it's hands-on, it doesn't matter what it is, as long as there's intimacy at the heart of all of that, you're golden. It's enjoyable. It's lovely.

Michelle (35:20.203)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (35:35.432)

Yeah. And we can have cravings, right? Like, let's expand our sexual repertoire. Like, if I, let's say I had a partner that had permanent erectile issues, right? And I really needed penetration. There's hands, there's toys, right? It doesn't have to come from a bio-cock, you know? If it's not available, it's not available, right? It...

Lee Jagger (35:44.473)

This is spicy!

Lee Jagger (36:04.212)

Yeah.

Michelle (36:05.412)

And honestly, you can dial in whatever one you want when you're shopping off the shelf, right? You could be like, I'm in the mood for this one today. And as someone who loves playing with dildos, with partners, as my partners as the receiver, like it's just as fun to fuck them with that as I imagine it would be with a penis if we get our ego out of it and what it means.

Lee Jagger (36:30.187)

Yeah.

Michelle (36:31.872)

What does it mean to not have that attached to you? Like that's some work to be done, but you have to, like, I think it's possible to pull those apart if we want to. And if you're seeing your partner in being with them in great sex, I think it really helps start to pull that apart of like what is really needed to have great sex. And it definitely is not a penis. We can see that in the orgasm gap, right?

Lee Jagger (36:35.735)

Right.

Lee Jagger (36:54.509)

Yeah.

Michelle (37:01.132)

If that's how we're judging good sex, the penis is not the part that's important. It's two people.

Lee Jagger (37:06.786)

No, and most people or most women can, the majority of women cannot have an orgasm through penetration alone anyway. So we need that external stimulation. We're not even talking about like internal G-spot, external stimulation and you don't need a penis for that. So yeah, yeah. And I also, something you said earlier made me think, I have this, I love quoting Mother Teresa.

which is shocking for people when we're talking about sex. But I like this one quote, mother Teresa said, makes me think, oh yeah, she's teaching us how to be a compassionate lover when she says this. So she said, the most terrible poverty, I mean, she worked with people in poverty, right? The most terrible poverty is loneliness and the feeling of being unwanted. And I will say that when,

when there's a soft penis situation and either party doesn't really know how to proceed, how to have great sex without using insertion as the prerequisite, then that man feels unwanted. Like when you reject his penis, like a woman who doesn't know any better, and she's like, you know, kind of avoiding that private area.

He's taking that as a personal rejection, not just a penis rejection. Like, and she may be just thinking, I just don't know what to do with it. So I'm not going to go there. And while, yes, there's lots that you can do without using a penis to stimulate each other. It's still important to touch the penis, even if it's soft, because that makes him feel so loved on and so wanted as a man.

I mean, that's why they call it their manhood. It's the men identify so heavily with their genitals. So ladies, you gotta touch it, whether it's soft or not. You really, really do. And to let him know that, like, I don't care if you're hard or not, I still love this part of you because I love all of you. And I just wanna love on you.

Michelle (39:13.838)

Yeah.

Michelle (39:27.978)

Even if it's not sexual touch, right? I'm just going to brag on myself a bit in my work. Part of what I get for feedback is people that do have erectile issues is my just enthusiastic excitement to touch a soft penis. I think they're so fun and it's not about getting them hard or getting them to orgasm or anything. I just want to play with it.

Lee Jagger (39:29.694)

Yeah, that's right!

Lee Jagger (39:34.926)

Ha ha!

Michelle (39:52.92)

It's just, they're just, I just think like, there's so many times where I just like touch, touch their soft penis and touch their heart at the same time and let them know like how much I love them and care for them and that this whole thing is good. Like it's just, I love that. That's my, like one of my favorite moments in work when I'm working with someone that does have erectile issues is like, oh my gosh, let me show you appreciation and love for you.

however you show up. And I think this is where our sex education is really lacking because I don't think women understand that a man's erection has nothing to do with you. It's not a sign that you're not attractive to them. I was never taught these things and I remember getting back out into the dating world and having to kind of remind myself, this isn't about me, right Michelle? And I'm a sex geek. Like I know all the things and I still have to do that kind of like.

Lee Jagger (40:48.255)

Right?

Michelle (40:51.256)

okay, Michelle, it's not about you. Or even in my work now, when they're struggling that their erection isn't showing up and I'm like, this is nerves, this is a lot of things, but it is not about how they feel about me as a person or about my attractiveness or even our connection, right? It's nothing to do with that. It's a completely separate thing. It doesn't have to do with you.

So I'm assuming we're gonna get a lot of women listening to this episode specifically, and I want them to know the erection is not about you. You can still have a really fulfilling sex life if your partner has even, whether it's like occasional issues with ED or it's a perpetual issue with ED, you can still have great connection and great sexual connection. Yes. And I'm like thinking.

Lee Jagger (41:41.91)

Yes, 100%. And it's really.

Michelle (41:45.58)

I'm like, is there anything else I need them to know? Like, please go.

Lee Jagger (41:48.566)

Well, yeah, 100% of everything you just said. And I would add that it's, yes, it's important for women to know that this isn't about them. The soft penis situation is not a reflection on how much they love you or attracted to you. Yes, 100%. And we need to let guys know that we know that it's not about us.

because the guy in his head, he's like, Oh my God, she's going to think that I don't like her. I'm not turned on by her. And this is going on in the guy's head. So there are ways to broach that subject to let him know that, Hey, you're off the hook. You're off the hook. You're not going to offend me. I got you. In fact, I'm going to, I'm going to own your penis in a second. And God, I hope you don't even get an erection.

Michelle (42:12.668)

Mm-hmm.

Lee Jagger (42:39.522)

because there's so many things that I can do with it when it's soft and feels awesome, you know? So you gotta let guys know that you know that.

Michelle (42:48.56)

Yeah, you gotta speak it out your mouth, right? Neither one of us are mind readers. Yeah.

Lee Jagger (42:50.278)

you out of your mouth. Yeah, you can't. Yeah. No, not a lot of communication here. Say it because they're going to be thinking it and then they're in their head and then they're not really enjoying themselves and they're feeling less than and incompetent and all the things. So yeah, ladies, love on your guy verbally too.

Michelle (43:07.708)

Yeah.

Michelle (43:11.896)

It's a gift to take them off the hook really is a gift to them. Cause how do you, like if you're showing up in sexual situations with expectations of how you're supposed to perform and how everything's supposed to go, how do you enjoy it? How do you just roll with it? If like, it feels like I always say like laughter should be part of your sex, right? You should be, if you're not laughing as part of your sex, you're trying way too hard. Like,

Lee Jagger (43:35.146)

Yes!

Lee Jagger (43:41.322)

Yeah, I think with the more skills that we have, both men and women, then the more our confidence goes up because our competence is up. If you have low competence in the bedroom, let's just say, then your confidence can't be really high because you don't know many things, right? So your confidence automatically goes down. So you up the competence, then that increases your confidence.

confidence and when you have increased confidence, you can relax, you know, like you can just be free and when you can relax and be free and just then you can be playful and then you can laugh. But there's no laughing in the bedroom when you're like, Oh, I don't know what to do. Oh God, just stick it in. Oh, he can't stick it in. Oh shit. What do we do now? You know, so, so there's no laughing going on in that situation. So you get to up your competence, learn a few things.

Michelle (44:37.764)

You gotta take chances, right? You gotta be able to experiment. And I'm gonna give a freebie here. I don't know if it's in your class. So pardon me if I give away a secret. If you're not confident in what you're doing, put a blindfold on them. Put a blindfold on them and have notes next to you if you need to. This is a sex worker like tip I got years ago.

Lee Jagger (44:55.018)

Yes!

Michelle (45:04.516)

a friend of mine that was in sex work and was new and was like, okay, I have to do this BDSM scene and I'm just kind of new to this world and like I need notes so they slap a blindfold on the guy and then you can have your notes out. My partner does it with like rope and Shabari stuff. Sometimes he doesn't know all the ties to a certain tie and he'll have his little notes next to him. You just slap a blindfold on him.

Lee Jagger (45:25.966)

Absolutely. And then also, like when, when I'm teaching women how to do stuff, especially the first time, the very first time they're trying to trying really basic stuff out, they're still nervous. And, and so I say, yeah, put that cloth over their eyes. That way you can have a little cheat sheet off to the side. You can play me on your phone off to the side. You just follow along and.

The bonus thing is that he's not looking up at you so you don't feel like the spotlight is on you when you're trying something out and you're really nervous and you're like, oh, I don't know, I don't know. It helps that he's not looking at you going, what are you doing?

Michelle (46:04.568)

I'm just thinking of like, I don't know what my face looks like when I'm concentrating, but I know what other people's faces look like sometimes when you're concentrating. It's not sexy. I'm just thinking of like, I don't know what my face looks like when I'm concentrating,

Lee Jagger (46:11.03)

Yeah, it's not sexy. No, no, it looks like you're mad. Because you know, your brows a little bit furrowed, you're kind of frowning just a little bit. Yeah, people don't look good when they're concentrating!

Michelle (46:23.268)

My grandma used to stick her tongue out when she would concentrate. And I'm just thinking like, oh my gosh, not that I want to think about my grandma in an erotic massage situation, but like I just, I can see her in my head. I'm also thinking the blindfold really ups other sensations, right? When we take away one of our senses, the others jack up. So like blindfolds, super useful.

Lee Jagger (46:42.914)

Oh, so good. And also it kind of, it gets the guy into his body a little bit more and not so much looking at you in your sexy lingerie and what, and then he's thinking about, oh, but how do I touch her? How do I reciprocate for her? How do, you know, I want to do this to her. No, no, no. In fact, I encourage women, especially the first little bit, like.

Either figuratively or literally tie your guy's wrists. Like make him, tell him, no, you're not allowed to touch me. You don't need to look at me because you're not gonna be aiming your hands in any certain direction. Like just receive, just receive. And.

Michelle (47:23.314)

Mm-hmm. Which is a, that's a test, I mean, that's, for a lot of men, it's hard to receive. So they have to learn a new skill set too.

Lee Jagger (47:29.534)

really hard. Yeah. Cause there's, Oh, it's a total skillset to receive. Oh man. And it, a lot of people think, Oh, but that'll make me feel like I'm selfish or that I need to reciprocate. And so I often tell women to, you know, make sure your guy knows that you're getting a lot out of just having, like having the skills to do this. You're, you're, you're taking care of, you're, you're feeling awesome. You're feeling like Beyonce.

on stage and just rocking it out. So you gotta let guys know that they don't have to reciprocate, they can just receive right now. They can reciprocate later if they want.

Michelle (48:07.708)

I think it's a gift. It's such a gift to say to your partner, I want to do this thing for you and I want you to have the ability to just soak it up and not think about giving it back to me. And so a lot of times I'll tell clients like, maybe consider tonight is just about you, right? And then maybe tomorrow night we can flip it around, right? But to just lay there.

I happen to be a big fan of prostate massages. That's kind of my jam in the world. And so to say to my partner, I'm going to give you a prostate massage and I don't want you to move afterwards. You just get to sit in all the aftershocks, all of the just letting all that energy kind of dissipate in your body without this urge to like, okay, now I got to flip around and go do the thing to my partner, which just kind of, you don't get all the savoriness at the end. And I don't...

Lee Jagger (49:00.76)

Yeah.

Michelle (49:00.904)

I don't need anything right then and there. And if I did, I could take care of myself, right? But to just say, I want to do this thing for you and have that be it.

Lee Jagger (49:08.448)

Mmm.

Lee Jagger (49:11.679)

Oh, that is so good.

Michelle (49:12.584)

Because I'd love to receive on the other side of that too, right? Like I want to have a night that's all about me.

Lee Jagger (49:15.766)

Oh yeah. I love, I love those nights. Yeah. And it kind of, it lets each other off the hook. Like, yeah, I would like a night where it's all about me. And when I'm on cloud nine, I don't want to have to, you know, flip the tables around and then go to town on you. No, no. Sometimes I just want to lay there and I, please cuddle me now. You know, that's what I'm in the mood for. So yeah, it, it lets, it lets each other off the hook to reciprocate in the moment.

Michelle (49:46.064)

Yeah, and setting that container before you start so that they know what to expect at the end, right? It's like setting the scene. What does it look like? I want to do this thing. I expect that this is not for orgasm purposes. I don't care if you get hard. It's not necessary. I just want to play with your cock. And that's it. I don't even want anything in return. I just want to focus on you.

Lee Jagger (49:46.19)

I need to... Oh.

Lee Jagger (50:13.975)

Yeah.

Michelle (50:14.052)

and just set that right from the beginning so that they aren't in their head thinking about what they're gonna do back or like just knowing this is it. This is the container.

Lee Jagger (50:24.03)

Yes, and the container is so important. And the reason why it's important is because it, you would think that a container, like boundaries are confining, but they're actually not. They're really liberating. That I don't know if you heard about this study they did years ago where they took a preschool teacher and her preschool kids and took them to a playground and said, okay, you know, the,

Jungle gym is there, the slides, the swings, like all the things are in the playground. And they said, okay, go play. And the teacher just let them play. And they found that the kids actually stayed fairly close to the teacher. They just were reserved in their play. And then they take the same kids, the same teacher to a different playground. This playground has a very well-defined fence around it.

And these kids, like it was noticeable how different they played. They were much more rambunctious. They explored every square foot of the playground because they knew where out of bounds was. They knew where the line was, where if you cross that, okay, no good. So the same is true in the bedroom. Like if you have clearly defined boundaries, container, a fence, then you know

much like you can play a hundred percent out and know that you're not going to cross a line with your partner. You're never wondering is this okay? You don't have to wonder. It's already been established. It's so much more freeing.

Michelle (52:05.016)

Yeah. It's one of my favorite stories. That story was, I first heard that story when I was doing Cuddlist training to be a professional Cuddler, because a lot of what we do in that space is hold boundaries, right? And the founder of the business used to say, like, they pay us for our boundaries. Like, that's what we're being paid for. And it's so true that and like, I think knowing where the boundaries are is great.

but also knowing that you have a partner who will advocate for themselves, right? That we can trust that they have a no, so that when they say yes, that we know that they're a yes, that's like really, it's that fence too, in that I can trust that you're gonna take care of yourself and let me know if I am running up to that fence line.

Lee Jagger (52:45.387)

right.

Michelle (52:57.656)

or the fence line has changed for whatever reason, right? We get to change our mind, consent is ever going. It's not just I've said it and now I'm committed to it. That's real trust and intimacy when you have the ability to hear everything that needs to be said in the space, including people's no. That's how I can show up to sex with my partner so well is that he celebrates my no as much as my yes. And so...

Lee Jagger (53:08.236)

Yeah.

Lee Jagger (53:16.396)

Yes.

Michelle (53:26.62)

I can take risks, right? I can ask for crazy things and know that he'll tell me no if he's not into it. I don't have to worry that he's doing something he doesn't want to do and he feels the same way about me. And so having a good fence line in your playground, it's going to make fun way more fun.

Lee Jagger (53:44.766)

Yeah, it takes a little while to get there too. Like it's hard for people who aren't really familiar with that concept to dive into it. It's a tiptoe kind of thing to get your feet wet for sure. But one thing I will say is the easier you make it for your partner to say no, like you're not gonna judge them, there's no repercussions, you're not gonna get mad at them for saying no.

that like it's safe for them to say no and honor their own no, then the more likely they are to say yes, you know? So it's just really important to make it okay to change your mind, to say no, to understand that if it's not a hell yes, it is a no, or maybe it's a yes later, but it's not a yes right now. So yeah, just honor your partner's no and practice outside the bedroom.

Michelle (54:40.241)

Hmm?

Lee Jagger (54:40.554)

You know, like, hey, honey, I know we were going to go out for dinner tonight, but, but I just not into it. I don't know. I had a bad day and I just feel like being at home, making it okay for somebody to say that and go, thanks for taking care of yourself. Okay. Let's do something else. Oh my gosh.

Michelle (54:55.388)

I was going to say, thank you for taking care of yourself has brought friends of mine to tears when they've had to cancel something. And I've said, thank you for taking care of themselves. They have literally cried because nobody has ever just given them the, it's okay to take care of yourself response.

Lee Jagger (55:12.65)

Yeah, that's huge. Because otherwise people will feel like, okay, I gotta make up an excuse or make up a lie just to make it okay for that person that I'm saying no. When you get rid of all that fluff and you just make it okay, oh my gosh, that's such a gift.

Michelle (55:28.76)

And it's building connection, and then we can bring it all back to the sex, right? The sex is just better with good communication, the communication that is heard and safe, and everything's welcome.

Lee Jagger (55:34.636)

Oh yeah.

Lee Jagger (55:39.166)

Good communication.

Lee Jagger (55:43.798)

Yeah. Oh yeah. And yummy skills with your hands too, that helps. Hey we're both I mean, I'm an Encinitas, so that's not very far from you. So we're definitely doing that.

Michelle (55:45.288)

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I think I have a new BFF. We should get coffee soon, but anyways.

Michelle (55:58.476)

No, we are doing that. Thank you so much for being here. Is there, okay, how can we find you? What are you, like, what do we need to do next, Lee?

Lee Jagger (56:08.41)

Well, if people want to jump in my world, you can find me everywhere on social media, like Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, Twitter, everywhere. My handle is Rock the Bedroom. And if you go to rockthebedroom.com, there's a free technique that people can get just to dip their toes in my world and see if that's something that, yeah, try it out. And I...

Michelle (56:30.056)

Try it out.

Lee Jagger (56:33.354)

I mean, I almost guarantee that just with the one teeny tiny free no brainer technique, you look at it and you go, ah, that's not going to do anything. One, yeah, it'll drive him wild. Two, your confidence totally goes up. Like you can notice your confidence. Like, oh my gosh, this is so simple to do, but look at the response I got from my partner. So when you see that your confidence goes up. And so that they go to rockthebedroom.com and

and dip your toes in. It's so juicy.

Michelle (57:05.328)

I'm gonna go do that after we sign off today. I'm gonna go totally get the free technique and give it a try, because I just wanna know if I know it or not.

Lee Jagger (57:06.794)

It's true.

Lee Jagger (57:14.906)

Yeah, you bro, everyone knows it. Everyone knows it. It's not going to be a surprise. That's why I say you're going to look at it and go, really? That's it. But do it and do it as slow as you pot like slower than molasses in January. Just so slow.

Michelle (57:20.677)

Okay.

Michelle (57:25.916)

Okay.

Michelle (57:33.856)

Oh my gosh, if you slow any touch down, it changes how it feels. It suddenly becomes incredibly erotic no matter what it is just because you slowed it down. Just because you slowed it down.

Lee Jagger (57:36.64)

Yes!

Lee Jagger (57:45.926)

Yeah. You can take anything. If I were to give your listeners, like if they never enter my world, that's fine. But the one piece of advice I would give anyone listening to this man or woman is. No matter what you're doing, how you're touching your partner or kissing them or anything, slow it down. Just like a kiss, a peck on the cheek. No, no, no.

Even if it's on their cheek, I want you to slow that down. Like make it a seven second kiss.

Michelle (58:20.476)

Well, as Betty Martin would say, slow it down and then slow it down again because it's still not slow enough, right? Cut it in half again, yeah.

Lee Jagger (58:25.258)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, when you think you're going slow enough, slow it down more for sure. Yeah, because it feels so good and it lets your partner know. It's not just a mindless thing. You're doing you're basking in it, which means you're basking in them.

Michelle (58:32.68)

Uh huh, yeah, yeah.

Michelle (58:43.948)

And if you want to be a quality lover, like I have this lover, I'm in an open relationship, my partner completely knows about this, I have this lover. And he is so just slow, like everything is just, it's like...

The difference between I have a younger husband and I have this older lover and when I found out that he was 50, I go, oh my God, this all makes sense now. He goes, what do you mean? I go, you're so slow and just taking it all in and it's like, there's no rush. It could take all night and he would be thrilled with it. That is worthy of I pass this man around.

Like he is living his best life right now. I have him on rotation with a bunch of ladies here and he will be delighted to hear this on this video because he gets such a kick out of it. But it's like, it's just being slow and taking your time and it is.

Lee Jagger (59:30.126)

I'm sorry.

Lee Jagger (59:40.325)

Yeah.

Lee Jagger (59:48.754)

Yeah, yeah. Give that gift to your partner. You'll see it come back to you 10 times when you really slow everything down. Yeah, so good.

Michelle (59:52.43)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (59:58.084)

Yeah. Anyways, okay Lee, it was a pleasure. I can't wait. I'm so glad that our mutual friend brought you into my life and we will talk again soon. I'm going to sign off.

Lee Jagger (01:00:03.31)

It was so lovely.

Lee Jagger (01:00:13.538)

Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. This has been really juicy.

Michelle (01:00:17.816)

Yay!